First Principles

Quote: FrGamble

Details about the fundamental idea of a tree differ greatly too..

Seriously? This is how desperate you've
gotten? Show 100 people a maple
tree and ask them to draw it, you
will get 100 pretty close pics of a tree.
Do that with god and you'll get 100
totally different pics. God is an idea
that does not exist in the objective world.
If he did, there would be only one god
religion. Instead there have been hundreds.

I just think your litmus test about if something is real in an objective sense is off. Government is real and lots of people have very different ideas about what government should look like. Same thing with love and justice. For something to be real and true does not require everyone to be in complete agreement about it. Again the idea of a tree, which we agree is real in an objective sense, is still real even if someone has never seen a tree.

Quote: FrGamble

Again the idea of a tree, which we agree is real in an objective sense, is still real even if someone has never seen a tree.

Only because you can find a
tree and prove it's existence.
Try that with god and you
might as well try and prove
unicorns exist. There are
people in mental institutions
because they got carried away
thinking the subjective universe
is real. Separating fantasy from
reality drives some people
literally crazy.

You can find God; many, many people have.
Also the main point still is that not everyone can perfectly describe or agree on things that are real and objectively exist outside our heads. I think you may need a better definition of what is real and true.

Quote: FrGamble

You can find God; many, many people have.

Or think they have, because there
is no god to find.

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I think you may need a better definition of what is real and true.

You mean one that includes fantasy.
You can't move the goalposts just
so your explanation of what's real
includes the subjective world.
Real means provable, and god
isn't.

Quote: Evenbob

Or think they have, because there
is no god to find.

Whoa there buddy. Let's be clear that is just your subjective belief that you assume, but has no real basis in reality.

Quote:

You mean one that includes fantasy.

No, just not based on what 100 people can describe. Real does not mean provable. What is provable? Are you saying the only thing that is real are the things you can see or touch? What if your senses deceive you, as they are prone to do? Does that mean even what you call objective reality is subjective based on the quality or ability of your senses? What if you cannot understand something? Does that make it unreal or false?

No your definition of reality should not include fantasy but it should be a little more thought out than, "What is real is provable." That definition just complicates things. I'm still not even 100% sure you believe there is such a thing as real truth.

Quote: FrGamble

Whoa there buddy. Let's be clear that is just your subjective belief that you assume, but has no real basis in reality.

God is every bit as real as
unicorns and Santa. Feel
better?

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should be a little more thought out than, "What is real is provable."

It's a pretty good indicator. When
science can prove something, it's
a good bet it's real. You can't walk
around thinking everything that
pops into your head is real, that
will get you locked in a loony
bin.

Quote:

I'm still not even 100% sure you believe there is such a thing as real truth.

I'm still waiting for your definition
and examples of 'real truth'. It
seems to be if a whole lot of people
believe something, it must be the
truth.

Quote: Evenbob

God is every bit as real as
unicorns and Santa. Feel
better?

I do feel a little better knowing that you hold this as your own subjective belief that is not real outside your own head.

Quote:

It's a pretty good indicator. When
science can prove something, it's
a good bet it's real.

For sure! However observation and testing is not the only way to arrive at truth or things that are real.

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I'm still waiting for your definition
and examples of 'real truth'. It
seems to be if a whole lot of people
believe something, it must be the
truth.

As I've said numerous times already if a whole lot of people believe something it is good indicator that there is something real and true there but obviously just the fact that many people believe something doesn't make it real or true! That seems more like your idea of morality and I would never ever think that. Another indicator would be the length of time the idea has stuck around, how it has been examined tested and how it has developed. Its effect and its fruits are important as well. It will be hard to discuss with you 'real truth' if the only thing you think is real are things that our fallible senses can grasp.
I get a sense though that you are starting to see that we do need a better definition for what is true than just what people may agree on or recognize as true.

Quote: FrGamble

I do feel a little better knowing that you hold this as your own subjective belief that is not real outside your own head.

Why on earth would I think otherwise.
Just like you, all my opinions about
a god are subjective. He doesn't
exist in the objective world that
demands proof, that much is obvious.
He's a being you pretend is real
and I do not.

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not the only way to arrive at truth or things that are real.

So you keep saying yet never proving.

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a whole lot of people believe something it is good indicator that there is something real

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A lot of people accept the idea
of a god, and they think that's
the same as god existing for real.
It's not.

Quote: Evenbob

Why on earth would I think otherwise.
Just like you, all my opinions about
a god are subjective. He doesn't
exist in the objective world that
demands proof, that much is obvious.
He's a being you pretend is real
and I do not.

I don't think like you. I believe in objective truths and not just subjective ones that are my opinion or assumptions. I do believe that such truths demand proof, which as you say is obvious. I have come to believe in the truth of God's existence through the convergence of many different indications, evidence, arguments, history, miracles, personal experiences, and testimonies that I will NOT go into again with you! So you may pretend God doesn't exist but I don't pretend God exists I believe objectively and truly He does.

Quote:

So you keep saying yet never proving.

Another fundamental difference between us seems to be how you prove something. For you it seems only physical senses or mathematical proofs are acceptable. I think that those can lead to proving something true as call lots of other ways such as logic, philosophy, revelation, personal experience, reflections on history, our reason, looking at anthropoligical and psychological results, etc.

Quote:

we do need a better definition for what is true .

Quote: Evenbob

I'm glad you said 'we' cause you
sure don't have one.

I don't know if it is the scope of our discussions here to define what is truth. But I take it as a very positive thing that by wanting to define it you are searching for it and don't deny there is such a thing as truth. I also am glad you realize that it is not based on what culture thinks, what the majority thinks, what people in power decide. I think you also see that truth is not always just what our senses tell us. I wonder if you agree with me that truth is also not just based on what we as individuals decide it is?