The Coronavirus thread

Quote: ams288

Quote: Tanko

Anti-Vaxxer dies of Covid complications at 33.

Get the Pfizer vaccine. If Covid-19 doesn’t kill you, it can destroy your quality of life and shorten it. Ten percent of those infected, are left with long term effects. Loss of sense smell and taste, blood clots, permanent brain, heart and lung damage.

Hear, hear! Excellent post by Tanko.

Death was never my biggest fear from catching COVID. It’s the long term side effects. I know a girl who lost her sense of taste early on when she got it. She’s recovered from COVID but her sense of taste is all messed up. Random foods taste awful. She said drinking water tastes like drinking motor oil. Brushing her teeth is torturous.

This is important to point out. Because many people here don't realize the long term effects. Smell and taste being distorted is real (and of course nobody knows for sure, but possibly lifelong), decreased lung capacity for life, random mental issues (headaches, brain fog, memory issues, etc....), blood flow issues (which for men is common to cause erectile issues). And, everyone I personally know who has had COVID is young and healthy (in most cases you would say peak shape). So the idea that people should not be concerned about even minor cases is absurd.

I did everything that I could to avoid getting it. I feel safe now with the Pfizer vaccine. But, I will be the first in line if there is even a hint that a booster shot is required. Getting COVID is not in my life's plan. And, vaccines are probably the greatest development in humanity (as far as lives saved). In my view anyone who does not get the vaccine is just reckless (and slowing the reach of true herd immunity).

Quote: rxwine

If you're going to argue, old should just die, you're going to have to institute a political change first. Because it's not a current official policy.

Also, why reargue the points about shutting down pre-vaccine. My whole point is if you take the vaccine, there would be no shutting down.

btw. you didn't factor economic loss from repeated illness and loss work production of more covid than less covid even if it's not completely eliminated and even when people don't die.

"I don't ask questions; don't promote demonstrations; don't look for new consensus; don't stray from Constitution."-Bad Religion "Inner Logic"

I'm not arguing for anyone to die; I'm just arguing against the shutdowns. If there's a way to save* them without screwing up the economy, sure, go for it.

Things can't always be ideal. As a principle, people either believe that an adult individual (who is sane) should have the choice of what does or does not go into his/her body, or we do not believe that. If one believes that the concept only selectively applies, then it ceases to be a principle for that person.

So, I can simultaneously be in favor of people taking/not taking the vaccine as they wish AND of not shutting down. I do not deny that there might be some negative consequences as a result, but nothing works perfectly, so you have to pick one.

The economic losses that you mention are a joke in comparison to the full shutdowns we saw last year. They're a rounding error, in comparison.

*"Prolong," would be more appropriate. You can't save anybody.

Quote: Mission146

" As a principle, people either believe that an adult individual (who is sane) should have the choice of what does or does not go into his/her body, or we do not believe that. If one believes that the concept only selectively applies, then it ceases to be a principle for that person. [/qb]

Okay then, are you for or against smoking in all common areas where people gather? The virus and smoke enter other people's bodies the same way.

If you can keep the virus from leaving your body, you can walk around anywhere as far as I'm concerned. Just like when you use pouches tobacco. But you can't.

Quote: rxwine

If you're going to argue, old should just die, you're going to have to institute a political change first. Because it's not a current official policy.

Also, why reargue the points about shutting down pre-vaccine. My whole point is if you take the vaccine, there would be no shutting down.

btw. you didn't factor economic loss from repeated illness and loss work production of more covid than less covid even if it's not completely eliminated and even when people don't die.

The problem is with your assumption that it will ever be completely eliminated. It is a world wide virus now and even if every person in North America got vaccinated the virus would still exist in the world and on a regular basis get brought here. Eventually it will likely be considerably fewer deaths per year than we are getting now. Whether the vaccines get us there or the virus kills off most of the susceptible people time will tell.

Just think of it as mother nature doing what she is always doing, weeding out the weak.

Quote: kenarman

The problem is with your assumption that it will ever be completely eliminated. It is a world wide virus now and even if every person in North America got vaccinated the virus would still exist in the world and on a regular basis get brought here. Eventually it will likely be considerably fewer deaths per year than we are getting now. Whether the vaccines get us there or the virus kills off most of the susceptible people time will tell.

Just think of it as mother nature doing what she is always doing, weeding out the weak.

I would never claim we will eliminate at this point. The Cat is already out of the bag. Along with all its kittens. Doesn't mean we should just stop spaying and neutering them either though.

When we get a new virus. Two ways it will continue to spread. Either by incompetence or people screaming liberty.

Also I think I'm going to go with the right to only your own personal airspace. If you want the right to breathe out a dangerous virus you should have to wear a plastic bag over your head around the rest of us or go off to your own private isolated sanctuary.

Quote: rxwine

Quote: Mission146

" As a principle, people either believe that an adult individual (who is sane) should have the choice of what does or does not go into his/her body, or we do not believe that. If one believes that the concept only selectively applies, then it ceases to be a principle for that person. [/qb]

Okay then, are you for or against smoking in all common areas where people gather? The virus and smoke enter other people's bodies the same way.

If you can keep the virus from leaving your body, you can walk around anywhere as far as I'm concerned. Just like when you use pouches tobacco. But you can't.

I am for or against whatever the property owner decided to do vis-a-vis smoking. I am in favor of the rights of the property owner to decide policies for that property.

Therefore, I am categorically against smoking bans by Government mandate.

However, I can live with smoking bans that were voted upon by the public, but would still prefer property owners to decide for themselves.

Similarly, I am in favor of business owners being allowed to decide that unvaccinated people are not permitted on their property, if they wish.

Quote: Mission146

Quote: rxwine

Quote: Mission146

" As a principle, people either believe that an adult individual (who is sane) should have the choice of what does or does not go into his/her body, or we do not believe that. If one believes that the concept only selectively applies, then it ceases to be a principle for that person. [/qb]

Okay then, are you for or against smoking in all common areas where people gather? The virus and smoke enter other people's bodies the same way.

If you can keep the virus from leaving your body, you can walk around anywhere as far as I'm concerned. Just like when you use pouches tobacco. But you can't.

I am for or against whatever the property owner decided to do vis-a-vis smoking. I am in favor of the rights of the property owner to decide policies for that property.

Therefore, I am categorically against smoking bans by Government mandate.

However, I can live with smoking bans that were voted upon by the public, but would still prefer property owners to decide for themselves.

Similarly, I am in favor of business owners being allowed to decide that unvaccinated people are not permitted on their property, if they wish.

Who guarantees you the right to private property from other people coming to take it by force assuming you don't own a personal army?
If the government helps guarantee that right by its existence, it may have some right to interfere if you're a den of antivaxxers threatening the general public health. Just my opinion though.

You may think your property stays in your hands through the force of your own existence only, but I think it is actually a misguided assumption in probably all cases.

Quote: rxwine

Who guarantees you the right to private property from other people coming to take it by force assuming you don't own a personal army?
If the government helps guarantee that right by its existence, it may have some right to interfere if you're a den of antivaxxers threatening the general public health. Just my opinion though.

You may think your property stays in your hands through the force of your own existence only, but I think it is actually a misguided assumption in probably all cases.

There is no, "Government," without people. When we say, "The Government guarantees," or, "The Government should have the right to interfere," what we are really saying is that, "A group of people have decided it is a good idea to guarantee to all people," or, "In this case, a large enough group of people should have the right to interfere with other people in this way."

Anyway, we have agreed that people should have the right to property and that loosely-formed groups don't have the right to just capriciously take it from them. We offer that protection through the Government.

Similarly, that's why I can live with smoking bans in states that voted upon them. Sure, they're still a bunch of Fascists, but at least they voted to be Fascists first. It's at least better than such a broad policy being dictated to everyone by 100, or so, people.

Maybe individual states can have a vote as to whether or not denizens of said states should be required to get the Covid-19 vaccine. That would be interesting. You definitely can't do it at the Federal level, otherwise, by logical extension, the Federal Government should also be in charge of dictating laws and policies related to abortion.

Quote: AZDuffman

But if the vax works you are safe.

If it does not work then why on earth should I get it?

Frankly, I’d suspend you for this post if I was a moderator. I have answered this question for you maybe a half dozen times in various posts both here one on WoV, in ways simple enough for a 6 year old to understand. The vax works, but is not 100% effective. By taking it you are FAR SAFER than not taking it, but not 100% safe. THAT’S why on earth you should take it. Do you not wear a seatbelt because it is not 100% successful at preventing death?

Remember, AZ, I support your right to not get the vaccine. I agree that businesses should all be free now. I resent (but always comply politely) having to wear a mask now that everyone has had an opportunity to get vaccinated. But for any individual, the EV of not getting a vaccine is negative. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Quote: SOOPOO

Frankly, I’d suspend you for this post if I was a moderator. I have answered this question for you maybe a half dozen times in various posts both here one on WoV, in ways simple enough for a 6 year old to understand. The vax works, but is not 100% effective. By taking it you are FAR SAFER than not taking it, but not 100% safe. THAT’S why on earth you should take it. Do you not wear a seatbelt because it is not 100% successful at preventing death?

Remember, AZ, I support your right to not get the vaccine. I agree that businesses should all be free now. I resent (but always comply politely) having to wear a mask now that everyone has had an opportunity to get vaccinated. But for any individual, the EV of not getting a vaccine is negative. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

And it is a free choice. I am just getting tired of being told that I am somehow endangering society by choosing not to get it. And being told by people who mostly all do their own bad behavior that can spread disease or cause other danger. Especially with the logic that says I have to take it because it is so ineffective.

Frankly, this whole virus has been an exercise in people showing being obedient and complying without question to be some kind of virtue. And that we should lionize people who call the police on people not bothering anyone just because they are not wearing masks. We have seen very dangerous social signs up and down since the beginning.

The same people who get upset to no end about even calling it the china virus lest somehow a minority be offended treat people not wanting it the same as the biggest bigot treats someone they do not like.

I will not remain silent.