Should Trans People be allowed to use opposite sex bathrooms?

Quote: rxwine

Well maybe you have a true story where you personally went through jr high and most of high school forced to wear a dress and bra and panties and act like a girl. And you felt completely opposite and we’re fine with it. Didn’t affect you at all. Then I will give your opinion more weight, even though I don’t think everyone is going to react the same way to anything.

Appeal to empathy won't work on me; besides, my earlier point still prevails.

Yeah, you go through high school, 'Forced,' to wear those clothes---which isn't permanent. You might argue that the lasting psychological damage from same could be permanent, and I wouldn't dispute that, but only one of the two is absolute. If you have genital reassignment surgery as a youth, or anytime, your genitalia will absolutely not function as it naturally might have. There are no exceptions.

Besides, I'm not suggesting that individual parents, or sets of parents, not be allowed to allow a biological girl to live as a biological boy in every way that is not genital mutilation. Now, perhaps there are parents who, 'Force,' a biological girl who thinks she's a boy to live as a girl, in terms of how she dresses, nothing that the Government presently can, or should, do about that, imo. The Government, equally, should have no standing in how parents of someone who feels the opposite of their biological gender dresses and comports themselves if the parents are in favor of that.

In theory, parents could also, 'Force,' a kid who actually does think he or she is his or her biological gender into doing the opposite.

And...I still wouldn't be speaking to what parents can do at all. I would simply forbid doctors from doing genital mutilation to kids before a certain age. The parents can treat their kid as whatever gender they wish.

Do we need children to swear a blood oath that 2+2 = 4. I don't think so, but we need to show and demonstrate why it is recognized as so.

That is education.

Quote: Mission146

Appeal to empathy won't work on me; besides, my earlier point still prevails.

Guess it doesn't prevail on me either; I'm not empathic to your point of what other people do with their children when harm is still only a questionable outcome and not certain, and benefit is possibly also implied.

I'm also going to allow other surgery for children which might improve their life but might even kill them. They, parents, and doctor decide. What's wrong with that?

Quote: rxwine

I'm also going to allow other surgery for children which might improve their life but might even kill them. They, parents, and doctor decide. What's wrong with that?

Give me an example. It honestly depends on the surgery. I can say that I wouldn't be in favor of any non-medically necessary plastic surgery, for example, until someone is a certain age. Facial reconstruction, stuff like that. Do I think a plastic surgeon, for example, be allowed to put a 12-year old under the knife for a purely cosmetic nose job? I do not. I think that is the individual's choice to make when they are of an age to make that decision independently.

Quote: Mission146

Give me an example. It honestly depends on the surgery. I can say that I wouldn't be in favor of any non-medically necessary plastic surgery, for example, until someone is a certain age. Facial reconstruction, stuff like that. Do I think a plastic surgeon, for example, be allowed to put a 12-year old under the knife for a purely cosmetic nose job? I do not. I think that is the individual's choice to make when they are of an age to make that decision independently.

Any kind of visible birth defect if it's visible would take surgery. It's usually not life threatening. so it's not necessary. I still don't see why you think you have more right than the parents concerning risk/reward of their own child?

Why do you think you do, as to call for blocking access to a doctor for that?

Quote: rxwine

Any kind of visible birth defect if it's visible would take surgery. It's usually not life threatening. so it's not necessary. I still don't see why you think you have more right than the parents concerning risk/reward of their own child?

Why do you think you do, as to call for blocking access to a doctor for that?

I don't have any rights over those of the parents concerning risk/reward. When it comes to operations with permanent outcomes that could be detrimental, and are not medically necessary---here are the rights I think I and the parents should have: None.

We're literally talking about permanent genital mutilation and you think that should be decided by anyone other than the individual whose genitals are to be mutilated at such time that the individual is, at least arguably, mature and mentally developed enough to make that decision for themselves? That's who the right to make that sort of decision belongs to-nobody else.

Quote: rxwine

Any kind of visible birth defect if it's visible would take surgery. It's usually not life threatening. so it's not necessary. I still don't see why you think you have more right than the parents concerning risk/reward of their own child?

Why do you think you do, as to call for blocking access to a doctor for that?

I take it you are in favour of female genital mutilation in the Arab countries since the parents want it.

Quote: kenarman

I take it you are in favour of female genital mutilation in the Arab countries since the parents want it.

Actually I thought about this and blood transfusion refusal to children by some Jehovah's witnesses. And even whether someone 100 years ago discovering native tribe practicing cannibalism should force their beliefs onto the natives about it immediately.

I don't know the defining line for lots a things. I think we can argue in gray areas better than elsewhere though. I don't know if 18 is a firm adult line. Obviously not for some but for others. I've heard slight cosmetic female circumcision might work as a compromise It removes such a small a amount, you both meet the the requirement without causing the negative effect.

The thing is I'm on the side of letting people decide to do something or not as much as possible if it's mostly about them or their children. People like to control their own children as much as possible. Do we call it slavery, even though it technically pretty much could be?

You want black an white answers here, I can't say.

Quote: Mission146

I don't have any rights over those of the parents concerning risk/reward. When it comes to operations with permanent outcomes that could be detrimental, and are not medically necessary---here are the rights I think I and the parents should have: None.

We're literally talking about permanent genital mutilation and you think that should be decided by anyone other than the individual whose genitals are to be mutilated at such time that the individual is, at least arguably, mature and mentally developed enough to make that decision for themselves? That's who the right to make that sort of decision belongs to-nobody else.

Until we have evidence your proposed harm is greater, I won't change my opinion.