Can children be groomed to be gay or Trans

Quote: rxwine

Sure I can. I gave an example to SOOPOO why I can support minor trans surgery whereas the same thing can not be said (for at least what I know of) female circumcision)

It requires a number of checking the boxes.

First one, does the kid even want it.
Second, does the parent agree.
Third is there medical support in general mainstream practice Well the American Academy of Pediatrics supports it in on a case by case basis.
Fourth - Has there been a reasonable counseling and wait time before proceeding, concerning risks and well and regrets.
Fifth - is there a potential benefit, even if there is risk.

I doubt if the same has ever been done for randomly cutting off healthy limbs.

It is very similar to sex changes (by ways of surgery). It is a dysphoria with your physical state. The main risks being psychological (of not being satisfied in your present state) and self-harm (specifically trying to remove the limbs yourself in an unsafe manner). This is almost identical to gender dysphoria.

In both cases, making people wait until 18 has no negative results (and can have positive effects, because in both cases people can feel different with age and time). However, in both cases if people rush to make the changes there is no going back.

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/what-is-body-integrity-identity-disorder

Now, don't get me wrong, I am a huge supporter of trans rights. I also am all for adults choosing to get whatever surgeries they feel are right for them. But the issue comes with below 18, and this is just not the right time (body is still developing, no legal authority to make autonomous decisions, etc....). I just do not think that demanding that people below 18 get sex surgery is a great way to rally support for trans rights (when kids are often the focal talking point of the anti-trans community).

I know many healthy and successful trans, I do not know a single one who got a surgery before 18 (in many cases in their 30s or later, well past school, college, and into their career). The only trans I know who got a surgery before 18 is a total mess, now does this have anything to do with the surgery? I don't know. But, that is my anecdote which may bias my opinion.

Now, bear in mind my position is pretty consistent, I do not think babies should be circumcised against their will (nor should it be allowed for kids until 18), so convincing me of sex change surgery (or limb removal surgery for aesthetics) is going to be a hard sell, and I am about as socially liberal as they come, I just believe in some things being left for the individual to make as an adult.

Now again, if there is an actual medical condition such as intersex or hermaphroditism that requires surgery at birth to saftley raise the baby (medically necessary), that is a different story. But, this is an extremely rare case (like borderline no worth talking about, but policy exceptions should probably exist).

No one can or should speak for everyone's personal experience even if they've been through the same thing.

If a lot of negative effects eventually come out about early trans I might change my mind. But I'm not promoting early surgery for anyone. Not even one. I'm just leaving open to what I think it is relatively, an informed decision one could still make with several parties in agreement.

Quote: rxwine

No one can or should speak for everyone's personal experience even if they've been through the same thing.

If a lot of negative effects eventually come out about early trans I might change my mind. But I'm not promoting early surgery for anyone. Not even one. I'm just leaving open to what I think it is relatively, an informed decision one could still make with several parties in agreement.

The problem with this line of thinking is it is reactive and not proactive. Which, to be fair to you is historically the case for most policies. Almost everything from building codes to criminal laws are the result of a history of negative results. But, that does not mean it always has to be the case.

Maybe, waiting until something is proven to be safe is sometimes a good theory? And, before the usual suspects start with "BuT VaCiNeS", not applicable to this analogy.

Again, I am not saying it should be banned. It should be 100% legal (and even tax funded) for adults, fine. But, kids need time to think before being allowed for surgery, regardless of parents views (who frankly based on most parents are not the best judges of what are right for their kids ir society.) It can wait until 18, nobody had a negative impact for having to wait until 18.

Quote: Gandler

It can wait until 18, nobody had a negative impact for having to wait until 18.

You don't know that. One person on the NPR newscast said she would have committed suicide if she had been made to wait. And we also don't know if there were suicides for that reason that we don't know about.

If you look at some of the most severe trauma cases like war trauma, a certain number of people get debilitating PTSD, and others don't from the same experience. Not everyone is the same.

Quote: rxwine

You don't know that. One person on the NPR newscast said she would have committed suicide if she had been made to wait. And we also don't know if there were suicides for that reason that we don't know about.

If you look at some of the most severe trauma cases like war trauma, a certain number of people get debilitating PTSD, and others don't from the same experience. Not everyone is the same.

How many people who had surgery before 18 wish they could reverse it? I would guess it is higher than the people who would commit suicide if they could not wait until 18.

Quote:

n a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said.

You're going to ban 99% to protect the 1%?

Fair enough. Not me though.

https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b

Quote: rxwine

You're going to ban 99% to protect the 1%?

Fair enough. Not me though.

https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b

It's because 1% [it's what the link says too] is too many, way too many. The 99% who have to wait are going to revise into many of those changing their mind. Perhaps even a majority of them. That is a huge thing as well.

there's a certain faction growing that's saying "what do 'they' have against just being gay?" ... how about that?

Here's a prediction: I say what was true in the past about detransitioning is almost worthless data, things are changing so fast. I predict that 1% back when some kind of restraint was in the mix will now change dramatically, at least 3% with regret, easily more, and very, very soon

and very litigiously minded

I should make it clear, I'm OK with anyone transitioning their gender once they are adults. Exceptions for intersex people, of course

Quote: odiousgambit

It's because 1% [it's what the link says too] is too many, way too many. The 99% who have to wait are going to revise into many of those changing their mind. Perhaps even a majority of them. That is a huge thing as well.

there's a certain faction growing that's saying "what do 'they' have against just being gay?" ... how about that?

Here's a prediction: I say what was true in the past about detransitioning is almost worthless data, things are changing so fast. I predict that 1% back when some kind of restraint was in the mix will now change dramatically, at least 3% with regret, easily more, and very, very soon

and very litigiously minded

I figure if a 10 y/0 is has gone to age 13 without a change in his position, why are we making him or her wait to 16 or 18? And it's why I'm not opposed to it on a case by case basis

And again we're telling doctors what's best for the patients they work with. Making medical decisions for other people we don't know.

Quote: rxwine

You're going to ban 99% to protect the 1%?

Fair enough. Not me though.

https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b

What percent would have committed suicide before 18 if they were not able to transition, is it higher or lower than 1%? I would guess lower, meaning yes it would be a good regulation.

Also, I am a bit skeptical of that study, because people who regretted it so much to the point of shame would never participate.

And, what about post transition suicides? (This is actually far more common than pre-transitiln)? My guess is close to 100% of these suicides are because of extreme regret... Could a small number be due to bullying and social isolation? Possibly, but not the majority.