Israeli conflict

Quote: ams288

Oh, I absolutely do not have a dog in this fight.

I’m just pointing out stupidity when I see it.

Nahhhh…. you just don’t like it when your convoluted ideas are exposed as the weak arguments that they are! But go ahead, get one more insult in. It’s what you do.

Quote: SOOPOO

Nahhhh…. you just don’t like it when your convoluted ideas are exposed as the weak arguments that they are! But go ahead, get one more insult in. It’s what you do.

Okay: your posts in this thread show less than a third grade level of knowledge regarding the Israel/Palestine situation.

If they need more aid now, I question wtf Israel’s been doing with the 3+ billion dollars we give them every year already up to this point.

Quote: RonC

The murder rate in Israel was much lower than that of the US...until last weekend. Running some quick numbers, a place that had 88 murders earlier in 2023 and 9.7 million people jumping to over 1,000 murdered makes it much less safe there than in the US. Yes, you can add the caveat "for now," but how long is that in this situation.

Come on, two issues with that:

1. War deaths and terror are virtually never counted as murders (for stats or otherwise.)
2. Even if you count all Israeli terror deaths and war deaths the last in Israel murder stats, it is still less than America.

Quote: AZDuffman

An armed population is a big part of what made Mexico dismiss the Zimmerman Telegram.

As to Israel being "safer" you would not like the methods as most of what has made this happen is border walls, which you appear to be against. All in all my thought is you would want to leave Israel after a week if you were there.

I don't know why you would say that. I am not against border walls or even checkpoints. I am against Trump's method of proclaiming it because it focuses on xenophobia. I just do not think walls are the best solution for every mile of border (in fact they are empirically not.) However, for Israel massive walls do work (because they are surrounded by countries that have been trying to kill them since the 1940s.)

It is possible for something to be both a good idea and expressed poorly.

In other times, you can make a case for sympathy with the people in Gaza, separately from Hamas, which is doing a terrible job 'governing' it seems. Things are terrible there and human beings are living in that misery.

Not in these times. I am totally unfooled by anyone going to rallies for Palestine now, pointing out poverty or whatever. No one could go to such a demonstration without actually wanting it to be known they support the terrorists.

time to take that Palestinian flag in.

Quote: odiousgambit

In other times, you can make a case for sympathy with the people in Gaza, separately from Hamas, which is doing a terrible job 'governing' it seems. Things are terrible there and human beings are living in that misery.

Not in these times. I am totally unfooled by anyone going to rallies for Palestine now, pointing out poverty or whatever. No one could go to such a demonstration without actually wanting it to be known they support the terrorists.

time to take that Palestinian flag in.

I don’t think anyone will be looking to you for advice.

I cannot blame the Palestinians for not liking the lousy hand they were dealt, but when they start a war they cannot be heard to say "But, but...it's all YOUR fault."

Realpolitik 101

Quote: missedhervee

I cannot blame the Palestinians for not liking the lousy hand they were dealt, but when they start a war they cannot be heard to say "But, but...it's all YOUR fault."

Realpolitik 101

You absolutely can. Hamas rules Gaza by democratic vote (granted they won once and proceeded to eliminate all of their opponents every time a new election is attempted.) And, this election was well after Hamas made it clear what they were about (I mean they have been doing the same thing since the 80s, really earlier if you count their earlier iterations.)

The Palestinians have been sabotaging the peace process since the foundation (actually before since they refused to negotiate partition plans before the founding.) They 100% caused their hand (and have been making it progressively worse.)


Also, if anyone is feeling masochistic (and/or want even less sympathy for Palestine) I suggest reading Hamas' website:
https://hamas.ps/en/
(I am not sure if there are any rules against linking to a terror website -I cannot see anything-, and I would caution people that would be triggered by the conflict because it is appalling. But I think for educational purposes it is good to read updates from the enemy in real time. I am also kind of shocked that their website has not been taken offline by now. My best guess is their website is such good PR for Israel that they secretly like it existing and don't want to spend energy stopping their opponent from shooting themselves in the foot.)

Quote: Gandler

I don't know why you would say that. I am not against border walls or even checkpoints.

Well, I say it because.....

Quote:

I am against Trump's method of proclaiming it because it focuses on xenophobia. I just do not think walls are the best solution for every mile of border (in fact they are empirically not.)

So, if it is not Trump you are OK with walls?

Quote: AZDuffman

Well, I say it because.....



So, if it is not Trump you are OK with walls?

Not even that, I think I have said on here that I am even fine with Trump's walls. I just do not think using xenophobia and chanting (false) slogans is productive. Also, making a border wall the primary part of your campaign is silly for a number of reasons. I do not see how this is a contradiction.

I do not mind Trump's walls, in fact I accept that they are good thing. Because infrastructure projects of any sort are beneficial (you can even argue totally pointless infrastructure projects have a history of being positive for local economies) and border security is a good thing. I do mind the way he advertised his walls and made it a talking point. You can like an action and not like the way people talk about it.

For example, -an easy example in the context of this discussion- I may think bombing Gaza is a good thing, but I would be alarmed if people I knew were cheering to piles of dead Palestinians (even though we agreed on the basic action.) I do not see this as a controversial viewpoint, there are many actions (especially when discussing security and foreign conflict) that are necessary (even ethical,) but if people got certain kinds of joy or please from would make you feel alarmed.

I feel this is a very normal inclination and do not see how it is so controversial.