New high capacity airplanes

Quote: Pacomartin

Boeing's 787 Dreamliner was billed as a "hub-buster", an aircraft that would open new routes and allow passengers to fly non-stop in thinner markets rather than transfer via a hub.

When I hear "it was billed as," I get the terribly strong urge to say "The Titanic was billed as unsinkable," "the space Shuttle was billed as economical," and "Windows 8 was billed as an operating system."

On a less extreme view of things, lots of things are capable of doing what they're "billed" to do, even allowing for exaggeration, but the people who actually use them don't necessarily need them for that.

Quote: Nareed

On a less extreme view of things, lots of things are capable of doing what they're "billed" to do, even allowing for exaggeration, but the people who actually use them don't necessarily need them for that.

Well United has been using the Dreamliner to open up THREE new routes including the LAX-MEL (longest Dreamliner route to date)
Los Angeles (LAX) – Melbourne (MEL) 12,787 km NEW ROUTE
Los Angeles (LAX) – Shanghai (PVG)
Los Angeles (LAX) – Tokyo (NRT)
Houston (IAH) – Lagos (LOS)
Houston (IAH) – London (LHR)
Houston (IAH) – Tokyo (NRT)
San Francisco (SFO) – Osaka (KIX)
San Francisco (SFO) – Chengdu (CTU) NEW ROUTE
Denver (DEN) – Tokyo (NRT) NEW ROUTE

While this new routes is the longest for the Dreamliner, it is still 193 km shorter than United's long (began two weeks before 911)
12,980 km Newark to Hong Kong - Boeing 777-200ER

Aeromexico and Air Canada with 4 Dreamliners apiece are not using them for new routes, but as replacements for current aircraft.

Norwegian is using the Dreamliner the most new routes of any airline, hoping to make it more likely that US travelers will change in Oslo or Denmark.

But I think the moniker "hub-buster" is a bit of an oversell.

I think the 125 Dreamliners on order for the three USA fleets will have a modifier effect on the current widebody fleet. The 800 airframes on order elsewhere may be more alter air travel more radically by providing longer nonstops than in the past .

Quote: Pacomartin

But I think the moniker "hub-buster" is a bit of an oversell.

That's what I mean about accounting for exaggeration.

See, you have a set system of hubs. airlines aren't going to ditch them just because they can. They need a better reason, like having to, or it being advantageous.

Quote: Nareed

See, you have a set system of hubs. airlines aren't going to ditch them just because they can.

I see the mega hubs as just getting overwhelmingly huge. Emirates fleet of widebodies will soon have more seats than the combined widebody fleet of all three airlines in the USA (considering that the B767 has about the same number of seats as some single aisle jets).

Airline	B747	B767	B777	B787	A330	A340	A380	Total
Delta	13	95	18		32			158
American		58	61		21			140
United	24	51	74	12				161
Total	37	204	153	12	53			459
Emirates			142		21	13	53	229

It is understandable that Beijing Airport will soon be the largest in the world, since it is a capital airport of a country with 1.35 billion people. But the UAE's total population is 9.2 million; 1.4 million Emirati citizens and 7.8 million expatriates. It seems insane that they should take such a big chunk of the world's long haul transportation system.

Hubs are not ditched by the airlines, they are ditched by the passengers and by the regulators.

Hubs let airlines "capture" passengers, their car rentals and their hotel booking. Hubs prevent direct flights to a passenger's real destination.

Let planes fly from point to point rather than along preselected waypoints and flight durations will go down which is the best thing to build more ticket sales.

Ferry boats often make exaggerated courses over the water because the ferry boat is heavily loaded and collisions though rare do really have to be avoided. So Ferry boats rarely travel in a straight line or pass each other close abeam.

Airlines still fly planes from NYC by going well up into the Dekotas to get to San Fran or LAX. This zig zagging all over the place is no longer needed. Direct point to point flying in straight lines will allow better use of airspace. The airspace is empty except near airports.

As for bleed air and health problems. You don't need believers you just need some reasonable alternative. I don't think its exotic fumes at all, its simply dry air the same as in a silicon valley clean room where breast cancer rates are also sky high.

Hub buster.... yeah that is Madison Avenue speak. But it also reveals a desirable goal. Everyone flying a hub hates it. Flights are all at the same time, those runways are expensive but used for short segments of the day and night. Smaller more nimble aircraft can take passengers from a point of origin to their actual destination directly and avoid feeding everyone into a hub but flights will be distributed throughout the day and will fly to where people are actually going rather than into the hub to load more cattle.

Self Loading Freight is what the airlines refer to passengers as. The trouble is when passengers are treated like self loading freight they don't like it. Whether its self loaded sardines or self loaded but well treated, the selling point is total transit time and comfort rating. Total transit time is the easiest thing to change but the one thing the airlines most resist changing.

Quote: Pacomartin

But the UAE's total population is 9.2 million; 1.4 million Emirati citizens and 7.8 million expatriates. It seems insane that they should take such a big chunk of the world's long haul transportation system.

You seem to be upset by this. From what little I know about it, it seems to be a classic case of a convenient location and good service, perhaps good prices as well. In other words, a sound business plan.

BTW was it UAE or Singapore Airways that began offering suites in their A-380s? That's an insanely expensive and sybaritic way to fly. It makes first class seem like a hellhole in comparison. Come on, Blue Mountain Coffee, a real dining table, a shower, a real bed. First class can't even hold a candle to that (except, perhaps, the coffee).

Quote: Fleastiff

I don't think its exotic fumes at all, its simply dry air the same as in a silicon valley clean room where breast cancer rates are also sky high.

Hub buster.... yeah that is Madison Avenue speak. But it also reveals a desirable goal. Everyone flying a hub hates it. Flights are all at the same time,
Self Loading Freight is what the airlines refer to passengers as. .

Interesting view of the industry.
Just want to comment on a few of your statements I copied.
Got back from Vegas recently and one plane I was on didn't have the dry air problem.
Not sure of the equipment but I'm sure paco here knows. (I should pay more attention to equipment)
There were a bunch of small hole vents above the windows. Before the flight, a fine mist was coming out throughout the whole plane hydrating the air.
I thought that was really neat, 1st time I've seen that.

I have multiple clients that will refuse non stops and take a connection due to earning miles. Most will take the non stop but a few refuse due to earning miles.
Sometimes when an airline has a nonstop and other airlines have connecting service, the nonstop airline will price there fares very high.
I see a lot of this with Delta and Detroit.
Detroit DTW to Asia nonstop business class on Delta is very expensive. If you live in Detroit, can drive to another airport , connect through DTW to Asia, reasonable fare.
Domestically, I see flight schedules all day. Now of course West Coast to east coast nothing departing between say 4pm to 9pm, but that's due to the clock. If they say scheduled a 7pm flight, it would arrive east 3am, not a popular arrival time.
International, yea at some Airports. Take Mumbai BOM, everything I look at leaves in the 10p to 2am window. Want to leave Mumbai in the morning to go back to USA, forget it, just about everything departs in the middle of the night, often after midnight. This due to either connecting in Europe in the morning or arriving in the USA at a convenient time.

Quote: terapined

There were a bunch of small hole vents above the windows. Before the flight, a fine mist was coming out throughout the whole plane hydrating the air.

I don't recall whether I mentioned my last flight out from Cd. del Carmen. Getting in the plane there was a thick mist, almost like fog, inside it, coming from the air vents above the windows (all air comes from there). The flight attendant claimed it was condensation due to the air coming out cold and the day being humid.

Maybe so, but now I wonder.

In any case, the mist kept coming out until a few minutes after take off.

Quote: terapined

There were a bunch of small hole vents above the windows. Before the flight, a fine mist was coming out throughout the whole plane hydrating the air.
I thought that was really neat, 1st time I've seen that.

Like this?

Quote: Nareed

You seem to be upset by this. From what little I know about it, it seems to be a classic case of a convenient location and good service, perhaps good prices as well. In other words, a sound business plan.

Yes, it does seem very strange that this little tiny country could wrest the #1 position of long haul international travel from Lufthansa, British Airways, United, Delta, and American.

There may come a day with the new airport when Mexico City will have the busiest airport in the Americas (instead of #20). But considering it is the biggest city in the Americas, that wouldn't be appropriate.

1. 94.43 Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport
2. 66.88 O'Hare International Airport
3. 66.70 Los Angeles International Airport
4. 60.44 Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport
5. 52.56 Denver International Airport
6. 50.41 John F. Kennedy International Airport
7. 44.94 San Francisco International Airport
8. 43.46 Charlotte Douglas International Airport
9. 41.86 McCarran International Airport
10. 40.56 Miami International Airport
11. 40.32 Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport
12. 39.87 George Bush Intercontinental Airport
13. 36.46 São Paulo-Guarulhos International Airport
14. 36.04 Toronto Pearson International Airport
15. 35.02 Newark Liberty International Airport
16. 34.97 Orlando International Airport
17. 34.82 Seattle-Tacoma International Airport
18. 33.87 Minneapolis/St Paul International Airport
19. 32.39 Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County
20. 31.53 Benito Juárez International Airport

But losing the #1 airport doesn't really say anything about US competitiveness. It is just a reality of demographics. However, USA went into 9-11 as the dominant force in air travel. In the last 13 years it has been completely trounced in long distance travel.

Quote: Nareed

BTW was it UAE or Singapore Airways that began offering suites in their A-380s? That's an insanely expensive and sybaritic way to fly. It makes first class seem like a hellhole in comparison. Come on, Blue Mountain Coffee, a real dining table, a shower, a real bed. First class can't even hold a candle to that (except, perhaps, the coffee).

Of all the indulgences of the very rich, spending a fortune for luxurious travel seems the most outrageous. The idea of spending $20K-$40K for something that lasts 12-15 hours makes almost everything else pale in comparison. Even the Ritz Carlton in NYC is $1.6K per day.

Yea kind of like that.
It was only before the flight took off. No mist during the flight.
My flight didn't have that much mist as in the video, just the area above the windows the length of the cabin both sides,