Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

I know I'm not supposed to do this, but both Nareed and Evenbob via PM authorized me to speak for them that they secretly believe in God deeply and their posts here are only an act.

I'm dyslexic. I wrote god and I meant to
write 'dog'.. I love my dog deeply.
He thinks he's god, too.

Quote: FrGamble

Of course if you were a secret Theist it would explain the crazy comparison of what Bruno did to what Stalin did. Of all the dousies, and you've had plenty, that one might take the cake.

Crazy?

Let's see:

You make excuses for Stalin, yet quote Jesus telling his followers to kill heretics. You do not condemn what the church did, you claim Bruno should have known better. You reiterate loving Stalin, yet say not one word about Jehovah's or your love for Bruno. What conclusion am I to draw other than Bruno was worse than Stalin?

BTW, I've no idea what Bruno's heresy was. I'm sure I've said much worse about Jehovah and Jesus and their invisible friend.

Should I be burned at the stake? Or would mere drowning do?

Or has Christianity become civilized enough to deal with disagreements without resorting to murder?

Quote: Nareed

Crazy?

Let's see:

You make excuses for Stalin,

Whoa horsey, nobody is making excuses for Stalin. I'm just saying as a atheist he conveniently made himself god so he could determine for himself what was right or wrong. It is very common for atheists to do this, I'm grateful present company seems to be excluded.

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You do not condemn what the church did, you claim Bruno should have known better. You reiterate loving Stalin, yet say not one word about Jehovah's or your love for Bruno. What conclusion am I to draw other than Bruno was worse than Stalin?

Again I'm sorry for not stating the obvious. I and the Church condemns what was done to Bruno. I'll say it again we are called to love everyone, but that doesn't mean we have to hang out or agree with them or not correct them or fight against them. There is an old saying, "I'm called to love everyone, but I don't have to like them." God and His Church loved Bruno, they had a funny way of showing it granted.

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BTW, I've no idea what Bruno's heresy was. I'm sure I've said much worse about Jehovah and Jesus and their invisible friend.

The difference is you are not a vowed religious. If Bruno would have left the Church and stopped pretending to be a cleric things would have been very different.

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Or has Christianity become civilized enough to deal with disagreements without resorting to murder?

Again there is a reason why I am held to more responsibility and dealt with more severely if I claim to speak for someone. Like when I claim to speak for you based on your PMs, I would get banned. Murder of course isn't the right choice of words for what your describing, more like capital punishment. And yes the Church has become civilized enough to deal with dissent and disagreements without capital punishment, partly because those who speak falsely about the Church can more easily be found out and their damage is not as severe and devastating as it was to a largely illiterate populace with no internet access.

Quote: FrGamble

Again I'm sorry for not stating the obvious. I and the Church condemns what was done to Bruno.

That was hardly obvious from your previous post, which read almost as though Bruno had it coming.

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I'll say it again we are called to love everyone, but that doesn't mean we have to hang out or agree with them or not correct them or fight against them.

When exactly is murder the accepted moral means of fighting someone's ideas?

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Murder of course isn't the right choice of words for what your describing, more like capital punishment.

You're making excuses for the church again. Capital punishment is rightfully reserved for the most heinous crimes, like murder. Not for dissent (not in a civilized society). But then Jesus in the Bible, which you quoted, orders killing people for dissent. Typical for the god in question, of course. Killing people for their ideas is murder pure and simple.

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And yes the Church has become civilized enough to deal with dissent and disagreements without capital punishment, partly because those who speak falsely about the Church can more easily be found out and their damage is not as severe and devastating as it was to a largely illiterate populace with no internet access.

You mean now that the church has lost most of its mundane power. And now that people would react with revulsion and disgust if the Pope burned heretics at St. Peter's square like Nero did with Christians. Funny thing whom they were imitating at the Medieval church, isn't it?

What's worse is that this dissent involves a myth. Imagine people given "capital punishment" because they argue against parts of the Illiad, or about Star Trek.

Quote: Nareed

When exactly is murder the accepted moral means of fighting someone's ideas?

never

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Not for dissent (not in a civilized society). But then Jesus in the Bible, which you quoted, orders killing people for dissent. Typical for the god in question, of course. Killing people for their ideas is murder pure and simple.

Not in the case of treason is it? We no longer have to resort to capital punishment but I think we can see the seriousness of when someone pretends to be something they are not to purposely and maliciously lead people astray. I also wouldn't quite say Jesus orders the killing of those who harm children, that is not really the MO of the New Testament. However, I think you can see how seriously Jesus takes it when one leads others astray, again read what he says to the Pharisees to get a better sense of this. Jesus doesn't deal well with hypocrisy. Straight up sin, no problem; pretending to be a goody two shoes and are really a snake in the grass, He is going crush you.

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You mean now that the church has lost most of its mundane power.

Not at all, what I mean is that truth has, thank God, become more accessible so lies and untruths have lost their mundane power.

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And now that people would react with revulsion and disgust if the Pope burned heretics at St. Peter's square like Nero did with Christians. Funny thing whom they were imitating at the Medieval church, isn't it?

Again, only a secret Theist would say something this ridiculous.

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What's worse is that this dissent involves a myth.

Oh my, this is where you couldn't be more wrong! We are talking about dissent that involves life or death, and life or death in the eternal sense. Absolutely nothing could be more serious or disastrous.

Quote: FrGamble

Not in the case of treason is it?

It depends on what results from treason. I'm inclined to say no. Especially not in time of war. At such times passions and fears run high, therefore the possibility of error is great. For treason I would advocate exile to the country which benefited from the treason. See how many people want to live in North Korea, Cuba, Iran or some other hellhole.

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We no longer have to resort to capital punishment but I think we can see the seriousness of when someone pretends to be something they are not to purposely and maliciously lead people astray.

What was Bruno pretending to be?

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Again, only a secret Theist would say something this ridiculous.

Jews didn't burn people. The Romans did. Assuming the god Jesus does not order burning people at the stake, where did the idea come from?

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Oh my, this is where you couldn't be more wrong! We are talking about dissent that involves life or death, and life or death in the eternal sense. Absolutely nothing could be more serious or disastrous.

But you're going about it all wrong! You don't make offerings to Amun, Ist, Weser, Ra, Imhotep, Mantu, Kamun, Anubis or even the Aton. You do preserve your bodies after death, but you don't leave copies of the Book of the Dead or the Book of Gates with the corpses. You do not leave funeral models or even possessions for use in the after life, except one set of clothes. You do not set up mortuary temples at cemeteries. Granted there's lots of praying for the ba of the dead, but none of it involves the right offerings to the right gods.

How do you expect an after life?

Well I'm off for a parishioner pilgrimage to Rome and the Shrines of Italy and won't be checking DT for about 10 days. This time I leave Mosca and Paco as Defenders of the Faith. Peace!

Quote: FrGamble

Well I'm off for a parishioner pilgrimage to Rome and the Shrines of Italy and won't be checking DT for about 10 days.

Have a good trip!

You mean I can post for 10 days and
not be told I'm wrong about every
single fact and stat I find? What a
massive job is on the Christian Apologists,
they have to rewrite 1500 years of
Church history.

I finally saw Bill Mahr's movie Religulous. It
was amazing, he covered most of the stuff
we cover here. Very entertaining. In the last
third he talks to Islam priests and followers.
He has quote after quote from the Quaran
and each and every time he's told he's got
the meaning wrong. Just like the padre does
to me. At one point an Imam says to him,
'you aren't very smart, are you, Bill.' I busted
out laughing!

These religious apologists are everywhere.
Black is grey, and red is really just a vague
washed out pink. Like Mahr says at the end,
if we let the mainline religions continue
unopposed, they will blow up the world for
there fantasies. For their gods that only exist
in their minds.