Original Sin?

"Well, it relates what Luke imagined Abraham would say to an unnamed man we don't even know for sure existed :)" It's a parable. It's not historical. The unnamed man never existed.

"I think it all goes back to believers thinking that because they find their beliefs so dazzlingly obvious, in some cases, everyone else will too." The parable is teaching the exact opposite of your statement above.

Quote: pew

It's a parable. It's not historical. The unnamed man never existed.

I know. You'd be surprised how many people think it's the gospel truth.

It's like saying "He wouldn't know reason if it came up and bit him in the ass." Or "He still wouldn't believe in evolution if "God" came down and told him it was true." Or any number of other things one can put together. I suppose Luke tried to give it authority by attributing it to a revered ancestor, as ancestor worship was an integral part of many religions at the time, and in Judaism specifically. Or like my second example invoking "God" as the ultimate arbiter of truth.

It still proves nothing. But then parables are meant as illustrations and not as proof. Think of all the ancient fables still popular today. What do they prove?

Quote: pew

The parable is teaching the exact opposite of your statement above.

I don't think so.

Luke says Abraham referred to Moses and the prophets. That's' the "dazzlingly obvious" aspect of the belief. Literally "God" came down and told Moses et al. what's what, and they told you. Why don't you believe them? Or rather "What is wrong with you that you don't believe them? Do you need to see someone rise from the dead?"

Which is another way of saying "What, you need actual proof to believe in something?"

Quote: Face

I (vaguely) recall a quote - "If the human brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't".

According to Wiki quote:

"If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple that we couldn't."

Emerson M. Pugh, as quoted in The Biological Origin of Human Values


That's amazingly exact for a vague recollection ;)

Quote: Nareed

I don't think so.

Luke says Abraham referred to Moses and the prophets. That's' the "dazzlingly obvious" aspect of the belief. Literally "God" came down and told Moses et al. what's what, and they told you. Why don't you believe them? Or rather "What is wrong with you that you don't believe them? Do you need to see someone rise from the dead?"

Which is another way of saying "What, you need actual proof to believe in something?"

You must have misread it. It says they won't believe EVEN WITH the proof of someone rising from the dead.

Quote: pew

You must have misread it. It says they won't believe EVEN WITH the proof of someone rising from the dead.

You must allow for poetic license (I haven't had mine revoked yet).

There's a story by Asimov called "Belief." At one point a character claims that if he were presented with a phenomenon that contradicted natural law, he would doubt his sanity rather than accept it.

SPOILER ALERT


The protagonists then tests this claim against another character, and finds out what he suspected: people don't like questioning their sanity, nor the evidence of their senses.

So Abraham, as imagined by Luke, was wrong. If presented with proof of something, most people will believe it. His claim that even with proof people won't believe, belies the assumption that those who don't believe are defective in some way.

Quote: pew

You must have misread it. It says they won't believe EVEN WITH the proof of someone rising from the dead.

But people are very good at believing things
that have proof. As well as believing things
that have no proof, like Jesus rising from
the dead. The quote is meant to say that
people are so stupid they won't believe
anything even if it's proven to them. Not so.

It blows me away how Christs point is being so clearly illustrated by nareed and evenbob. The cognitive dissonance and bias going right over your respective heads is amazing. It would be kind of funny if it weren't so sad.

It seems it's not possible to discuss religion with a believer who will not resort to innuendo and self-righteousness.