Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

Why do you say this? Wouldn't we want to admire and worship perfection?

A perfect entity would never ask for it,
as your mythical god has. It's about
as imperfect as you can get. But it
is something wandering nomads in
the desert would make up 3000
years ago.

Quote:

Why do you think that you are not locked in the cage

Because I do as I like and you do as
your told. That's what people in cages
do, behave for their master.

Quote:

you need a moral law and one that is objective.

I have my own moral law, which is better
than yours. It's made up as I go along.
You should try it sometime, you might
surprise yourself.

Quote: FrGamble

I think you think that modern scholarship recognizes Moses as the sole author of the Pentateuch. I can assure you that this is not the case.

That's what I have been pointing out to you - Moses was not the sole author, they question whether or not he existed at all or was just a legendary figure people wrote stories about.

Because of that, it is highly unlikely that any of the stories are true, and you base core tenants of your religion, such as original sin, on stories and events that didn't actually happen.

That makes it no different than any other society that is making up its own moral and ethical code, but in this case under the influence of very few people dictating to the rest about how things must be.

If the stories aren't true, the divine backing and justifications for the moral code evaporate.

Quote: FrGamble

"Worship is desired and demanded by the Lord. Especially for believers in Jesus Christ, worship is the expected way of life. Worship is not an option; it is a command." http://www.compellingtruth.org/God-demand-worship.html

You do know a command is mandatory, making no allowances for choices.

This fits in perfectly with your notion that we all should do as your book of myths say, because deep down that's what we want anyway. And the idea that we should worship your imaginary friends, because that's what we should realize they deserve anyway.

Your faith has this vision of billions of people all thinking the same, acting the same, believing the same and being the same.

So the next time you say "free will," I'm going to call you a hypocrite.

Quote: Evenbob

A perfect entity would never ask for it,
as your mythical god has.

I don't know a perfect entity that created intelligent beings might know that He deserves worship and that such worship is helpful for human beings so that they don't believe that they are gods and that there is something greater than them.

Quote:

Because I do as I like and you do as
your told. That's what people in cages
do, behave for their master.

I hate to break it to you but we all have masters. Your master is your stomach, your own selfishness, and your own emotions. You worship the unholy trinity of me, myself, and I.

Quote:

I have my own moral law, which is better
than yours. It's made up as I go along.
You should try it sometime, you might
surprise yourself.

I have lived many years of my life making up my own morality as I see fit and I assure you 1,000,000 percent that it is not better than the moral code God has given us.

Quote: Nareed

You do know a command is mandatory, making no allowances for choices.

Opps that was quote from Evenbob that I didn't put in his brackets, sorry about the confusion.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't know a perfect entity that created intelligent beings might know that He deserves worship

Such a being would never order his
creation to worship him, as yours
does in the Bible. It would be so far
above him as to be inconceivable.
You know this, quit pretending you
don't. Quit being the apologist for
ignorant nomads wandering the
desert making up god stories.

Quote:

Your master is your stomach, your own selfishness, and your own emotions. You worship the unholy trinity of me, myself, and I.

You have all that too PLUS the cage
you've locked yourself into. No
wonder Christians are so stressed
out half the time.

Quote:

I have lived many years of my life making up my own morality as I see fit and I assure you 1,000,000 percent that it is not better than the moral code God has given us.

No you haven't, if you did you would never
make such a ridiculous statement.

Quote: Evenbob

Such a being would never order his
creation to worship him, as yours
does in the Bible. It would be so far
above him as to be inconceivable.

I don't know this and I don't think you have thought it out. If a truly perfect being existed (and it does) then this being would know that it does not need worship, but deserves it from its creation. If it truly loved its creation it stands to reason that it would request such worship as a way to help its creation. The God of the Bible does the inconceivable by telling people not to worship Him if they are not right with each other first.

Quote:

No you haven't, if you did you would never
make such a ridiculous statement.

Believe me I have, it was not a pretty picture. Of course at the time I thought just like you did.

Bob, you and the other nonbelievers would almost certainly appreciate the sites
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/index.htm
Http://godisimaginary.com
Http://howgodworks.com

They are sister sites, there are links to the 2nd and 3rd sites at the bottom of the first.

The 2nd one is probably the most interesting - it has over 50 proofs of why God isn't real. They vary in quality and strength. The 3rd site seems to be pushing the guy's book of the same name.

I have probably linked to at least one of those sites in the past.

Quote: FrGamble

If a truly perfect being existed (and it does) then this being would know that it does not need worship

Nor would it ever enter his head in
any fashion. The need for worship
and praise in a human indicates
a lack of self worth. A god would
have everything it needs in just
the right (perfect) proportions.

Or maybe your god isn't perfect,
maybe that's the reason he needs
constant praise and worship. Either
way, your model falls apart. Wandering
clueless nomads rarely thought anything
through, did they.

Quote:

Believe me I have, it was not a pretty picture.

It takes true grit to live your life on
your own moral code. You, like most
people, can't handle it so you use
somebody elses. I completely
understand. Religion has nothing
to do with god or the divine, and
everything to do with controlling
people who would be out of control
without it.

And even this day The Catholic Church moves assets around and does everything legally possible to avoid paying the kids ( now grown adults) who were molested by priests. Pedophiles who the church regularly protected and set loose again and again on unwary parishioners. And those sins were recent, not centuries ago.