Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

Are you saying someone has filled your head with this atheism nonsense as a kid?

I didn't even know what atheism was till
I was an adult. Nobody talked about it
in the 50's and 60's. Or much about
religion either. I heard more about the
fad Eastern religions than anything else.

Quote:

Is this why you won't even read Wikipedia?

I read Wiki every day, I contribute to Wiki.
I just am aware that the subjects I read
about can be heavily influenced by special
interests. As you should be also.

Quote: stinkingliberal

Father Gamble, you call yourself a Christian and pretend to want to engage in constructive dialogue! How can you do that when you characterize someone's worldview as "nonsense"? That's being abusive and narrow-minded.

Thanks for calling me out SL sometimes frustration about people saying I have never thought criticially about my faith gets the better of me. I do want constructive dialogue and have been trying to encourage that. May I at the same time humbly ask you to remove the wooden beam from your own eye so you can help me remove mine. Not only here but in many other threads your uncharitableness is off-putting and hurts the ability to dialogue and learn.

What I mean by the nonsense of atheism is that there is no evidence or logical arguement that supports the belief that there is no God. So even though the word is perjorative and a bad choice on my part, choosen in the heat of the moment, I was trying to convey that there is no-sense to it. It would be akin to the greatest fairy tale ever and therefore would seem something you might tell to a child. Perhaps this is why so many people outgrow their atheism over time when they get older.

Quote: Evenbob

I read Wiki every day, I contribute to Wiki.
I just am aware that the subjects I read
about can be heavily influenced by special
interests.

Why then do you seem to turn off this awareness when reading about the Church from such crazy biased sites as you've quoted from? Why in the world would you take them as Gospel truth and refuse to even enter into a conversation about what Wiki might say about something like the Inquistion?

Quote: FrGamble

However, it makes a difference when God reveals Himself to us, as He did through Abraham and the prophets and finally in Jesus Christ. It is as if instead of us continuing to grope around in the dark God Himself lit the path for us. But something I always keep in mind is that God is always more, always greater.

Consider things like pulsars, quasars, dark matter, galaxies, giant stars, black holes, a plethora of planets, cosmic rays, and the wide variety of life and geological formations on Earth. Next ask yourself how come a deity that encompasses all of this or perhaps even more, never "reveals" anything about all these awesome, wonderful things, but instead commands you to kiss its ass.

When you look up at the sky, browse astronomical photographs or glance through a telescope, do you honestly see nothing more than a bronze age barbarian mythical figure?

Quote: FrGamble

What I mean by the nonsense of atheism is that there is no evidence or logical arguement that supports the belief that there is no God. So even though the word is perjorative and a bad choice on my part, choosen in the heat of the moment, I was trying to convey that there is no-sense to it. It would be akin to the greatest fairy tale ever and therefore would seem something you might tell to a child. Perhaps this is why so many people outgrow their atheism over time when they get older.

I've given you several logical arguments--you've ignored or dismissed them. You are continuing to denigrate atheists by saying that their worldview is not arrived at by logic and reasoning, since there "are no" such processes that would cause a person to be an atheist. I for one consider myself to be a highly logical person, and that didn't come about until I had some life experience. I challenge you to provide proof that "people outgrow their atheism." Do you have statistics? Facts? Or is that just bullshit?

I am appalled that you don't understand that objectively, it is religion that is the fairy tale. Really, if an alien landed on earth and asked you to explain religion to him. how would you do so without sounding irrational? How would you convince an advanced scientific being that your beliefs are based on reality?

And don't twist that around to "how would you prove atheism." Atheism doesn't need the same standard of proof as religion does. Religion is a fantastical claim or claims. Atheism is a reluctance to make such claims. The burden of proof is on the person making such claims. And there has to be a rigorous scientific standard as to what constitutes "evidence."

Quote: FrGamble

Why then do you seem to turn off this awareness when reading about the Church from such crazy biased sites as you've quoted from? Why in the world would you take them as Gospel truth and refuse to even enter into a conversation about what Wiki might say about something like the Inquistion?

When you say or imply that the Inquisition didn't happen or that it was really not so bad or that it was really lots of fun for the Jews (etc.), you are descending to and well below the level of all those "crazy biased sites."

I thought a basic tenet of Christianity was admitting one's sins. So why are you denying the evil acts that the Catholic Church precipitated for centuries?

Atheism is a valid metaphysical viewpoint among several others. Believing it doesn't make you a bad person necessarily. It doesn't mean you're correct either.

Quote: FrGamble

Why in the world would you take them as Gospel truth

I don't take them as gospel truth, neither
do I believe Wiki to be gospel truth. What
I do is read widely and form a general
consensus on a subject. You love the Wiki
article because Church minions have cleverly
toned the Inquisition down to where the
blame and the actual events are twisted
to Church's liking.

Galileo is what I use to measure where the
Church stands on their history. It took the
Vatican 400 years to finally admit they were
wrong about Galileo. And what happened to
him was a minor thing. With a major atrocity
like the Inquisitions, they will never apologize,
they will instead change history, or attempt to.

Quote: FrGamble

Perhaps this is why so many people outgrow their atheism over time when they get older.

Atheism is something you grow into,
not grow out of. There are people
who thought they were atheists and
were really agnostics, looking for any
excuse to believe in a god. A true
atheist gives as much thought to god
as he does to any myth. That is to
say, not much thought at all.

There's an old Spanish proverb that
says, "If god wants to punish someone,
he makes all their prayers come true."
It's along the lines of 'watch what you
wish for'.

The point is, we are usually the last ones
to know what's best for us, or what we
should be wishing or praying for. Actively
encouraging someone to pray to a god
every day isn't doing them any favors.

Quote: Nareed

Consider things like pulsars, quasars, dark matter, galaxies, giant stars, black holes, a plethora of planets, cosmic rays, and the wide variety of life and geological formations on Earth. Next ask yourself how come a deity that encompasses all of this or perhaps even more, never "reveals" anything about all these awesome, wonderful things, but instead...

These things are awesome and wonderful but all of them together don't hold a candle to you, or me, or any human being. God has given us the gift of reason and a natural desire to learn about these amazing things and they continue to be revealed to us. However, no quasar or galaxy or black hole will last forever - you will. Therefore human beings are the most awesome of all God's creation, we alone can think about, question, and explore this amazing universe. Therefore God's commands us to love each other and to love God. I hope you don't think that love means to kiss someone's butt.