Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

God has given us the gift of reason and a natural desire to learn about these amazing things .

It's infuriating how you constantly reverse
engineer everything to insert your flawed
belief system into it. We have the ability
to reason that comes with our need to
survive, it has nothing to do with some
mythical god giving it as a gift. Your brain
works in the exact opposite way of the
scientific method. Instead of looking
objectively for a cause, you look at a result
and jerry rig your belief system around it.

It's how primitive people see the world.
Actual scientific investigation is too much
work, much easier to lump everything under
one heading and forget about it.

Quote: stinkingliberal

I've given you several logical arguments--you've ignored or dismissed them. You are continuing to denigrate atheists by saying that their worldview is not arrived at by logic and reasoning, since there "are no" such processes that would cause a person to be an atheist. I for one consider myself to be a highly logical person, and that didn't come about until I had some life experience.

You, nor anyone has given any logical argument for why there is no God. There is simply no logical reason that would lead one to believe in atheism. I beg you to present one.

Quote:

I challenge you to provide proof that "people outgrow their atheism." Do you have statistics? Facts? Or is that just bullshit?

According to Pew research the median age of an atheist is 34 years old. The median age for the entire population is 46. 10 facts about atheists

Quote:

I am appalled that you don't understand that objectively, it is religion that is the fairy tale.

What do you think a fairy tale is? It is a work of fiction without any basis in reality. Jesus Christ was a historical person who lived in the Holy Land. He has historically impacted human history in a way that no other human being ever could. There have been countless documented and researched miracles and billions of people, including some of the greatest thinkers and scientists who have every lived, who don't think it is a fairly tale. Everyday people have real experiences of the living Lord Jesus in prayer. Please tell me how this is a fairy tale? Do you think that for any reason? Do you know something I don't? Why are you withholding some proof that Christianity is a fairy tale? I would be very interested to hear your evidence? While you are at it let me ask you why atheism is not a fairy tale? Objectively give me one reason why what you believe is based on any evidence or reality?

Quote:

Really, if an alien landed on earth and asked you to explain religion to him. how would you do so without sounding irrational? How would you convince an advanced scientific being that your beliefs are based on reality?

Presumably an advanced scientific being would be logical and already know that God or some first cause must exist. A much better question would be how would you explain to it your atheism without sounding irrational?

Quote:

And don't twist that around to "how would you prove atheism." Atheism doesn't need the same standard of proof as religion does. Religion is a fantastical claim or claims. Atheism is a reluctance to make such claims. The burden of proof is on the person making such claims. And there has to be a rigorous scientific standard as to what constitutes "evidence."

Don't try to twist out of this one. If you were just simply saying that you are reluctant to hold the claims of religion then you would not bear the same standard of proof. But that is not atheism. Atheism claims that there is no God or gods or creating force or higher power. To make such a claim you take on the burden of proof and it needs to be held to scientific and logical standards for what constitutes evidence.

It sounds like you might need to clarify what you believe. If you are open to God's existence but feel there is not enough proof (in which case I have already offered you an easy way to test for God and discover the proof you need) or you need to decide that there is no God and then justify that claim with some real evidence.

Quote: stinkingliberal

When you say or imply that the Inquisition didn't happen or that it was really not so bad or that it was really lots of fun for the Jews (etc.), you are descending to and well below the level of all those "crazy biased sites."

You just can't help yourself can you? I am not saying that the Inquisition did not happen or that there were not many things the Church needs to and has apologized for during that time in history. Then you keep going and dare to say that I would say something as offensive and inconsiderate as you did above. You are descending way past crazy when you attribute these things to me. There are really important historical facts you are missing or ignoring because they don't fit your agenda. Please read up on the Inquisition with some credible sources. Don't worry there will be plenty of stuff to criticize the Church with but you will better understand the context of the times and the lies that have grown up around these events due to anti-Catholic or anti-religious bias.

Quote:

I thought a basic tenet of Christianity was admitting one's sins. So why are you denying the evil acts that the Catholic Church precipitated for centuries?

I'm not denying the evil acts of the Catholic Church. What I am denying is your characterization of history as a near constant bloodbath or some of the other gross and negligent things you have said.

Quote: FrGamble

10 facts about atheists
.

"In fact, atheists are more likely than U.S. Christians to say they often feel a sense of wonder about the universe (54% vs. 45%)."

Why would Xtions feel a sense of wonder
about anything, that's the real question.
It's been figured out for them, just
blame god for it all and move on.

Quote: FrGamble

However, no quasar or galaxy or black hole will last forever - you will.

I could talk to you about the math and physics of a black hole, instead I'll quote Carl Sagan: "Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot."

Quote:

I hope you don't think that love means to kiss someone's butt.

I've mentioned a number of times that prayer consists of little but ass-kissing. Early Monastic ritual strikes me as BDSM ass-kissing.

Quote: Evenbob

Why would Xtions feel a sense of wonder
about anything, that's the real question.
It's been figured out for them, just
blame god for it all and move on.

You really don't know about Christianity.

Quote: FrGamble

You really don't know about Christianity.

But I know Christians. See a sunset or sunrise,
a range of misty mountains, the Grand Canyon.
The first words out of their mouths is "Look
what god did" or "God sure paints nice" or "God
is so wonderful". Blaming everything on a god
takes the wonder out of things, it puts a filter
on it that keeps you from truly experiencing.

Quote: Nareed

I could talk to you about the math and physics of a black hole, instead I'll quote Carl Sagan: "Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot."

I love that quote. Nothing lasts except the soul and what good is it to gain the whole world and lose your soul.

Quote:

I've mentioned a number of times that prayer consists of little but ass-kissing.

Maybe the wrong type of praying. We usually thing prayer is a synonym for asking for something or begging something from God. Prayer is really about a proper and right relationship with a God who loves us. You don't enter into a loving relationship by always just asking for stuff over and over. You also don't always flatter someone when you are in a loving relationship with them, you are honest and true about your feelings. Look at the Psalms and the prayers of the prophets they are often the exact opposite of butt kissing. Jesus on the cross cries out, "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me?" quoting Psalm 22.

Quote: FrGamble

Look at the Psalms and the prayers of the prophets they are often the exact opposite of butt kissing.

Really? Lets look at Daniels prayer of confession.
It starts out:

"Ah, Lord—the great and awe-inspiring God who keeps His gracious covenant with those who love Him and keep His commands — we have sinned, done wrong, acted wickedly, rebelled, etc etc"

This is royal ass kissing, it's how Dorothy
and her gang address Oz: "Oh great and
powerful Oz, etc". It's what Daniel does
here, butter god up with some groveling.

I have always thought you didn't like me to quote Bible verses but I will be happy to. Did you think I meant that there are no prayers in the Bible that talk about and extol the glory and greatness of God? Of course I didn't say that. What I want to make clear is that it is just as acceptable and just as prayerful at times in our lives to pour out our feelings or frustration, anger, and confusion about God.