In The News Today...

Quote: ams288

This article does a good job explaining the situation:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33194862/brian-flores-sues-nfl-others-former-miami-dolphins-coach-alleges-racism-hiring-practices

(My “BIG OOPS” was in reference to Bill Belichick not realizing who he was texting, revealing they had already picked their guy before Flores even interviewed with them).

From the article:

Quote:

Flores also alleged that the Giants interviewed him last month for their head-coaching vacancy for no other reason than compliance with the NFL's Rooney Rule, which requires teams to interview minority candidates for their open positions. The league has amended that rule in recent years and now says teams must hold an in-person interview with at least one external minority candidate for any general manager or head-coach opening.

That's basically what the Rooney Rule does, so it's for you whether or not you think that's a good rule. Personally, I think that makes the NFL one of the few jobs where you can have a specific person in mind for a position that you want (in this case, coach) and you are required to interview other people anyway.

It's also important to note that, obviously, the Rooney Rule only requires that a minority person be interviewed; it has nothing to do with hiring. That being said, in some cases, the very nature of the rule itself accomplishes nothing other than to have, 'Sham,' interviews take place. Many teams have a really good idea who their coach is going to be before they even start the formal interview process and telephones still work for NFL Executives and would-be coaches, so as with anything else, much of this is discussed before the formalities actually take place.

If his lawsuit is with anyone, then it's with the NFL itself...as they are the ones who implemented the rule that would have these, 'Sham,' interviews take place. Have you seen what the Bills have done with Josh Allen and the offensive turnaround in the last few years? It doesn't always translate, but of course they would want to hire Daboll.

There are also two sides to every story, so even with the tone of the article, it sounds like a case can be made that Flores is difficult to work with. Before you call me a racist, keep in mind the GM of the Miami Dolphins, Chris Grier, is also black...and would have been the one who fired Flores unless it was a direct order from the owner. If he didn't fire him, then he at least did not resign in solidarity as he is still GM.

I think it was WoV where I said that it was a head scratcher that Flores would get fired after back-to-back winning seasons and an impressive turnaround for the team, but there you go. I guess we will have to see what comes out of this, but I can't imagine that this lawsuit was a good move for his coaching prospects.

Anyway, he's suing, in part, because he felt he participated in two sham interviews, but it is the NFL itself that requires that, 'Sham,' interviews take place if you already know who you want your coach to be and the guy happens to be white...have to interview a minority anyway. I tend to think the rule comes from a good-enough place, but it's stupid when you look at it in execution...Flores is basically suing because the team behaved according to the rules.

Quote: Mission146

From the article:



That's basically what the Rooney Rule does, so it's for you whether or not you think that's a good rule. Personally, I think that makes the NFL one of the few jobs where you can have a specific person in mind for a position that you want (in this case, coach) and you are required to interview other people anyway.

It's also important to note that, obviously, the Rooney Rule only requires that a minority person be interviewed; it has nothing to do with hiring. That being said, in some cases, the very nature of the rule itself accomplishes nothing other than to have, 'Sham,' interviews take place. Many teams have a really good idea who their coach is going to be before they even start the interview process and telephones still work for NFL Executives and would-be coaches, so as with anything else, much of this is discussed before the formalities actually take place.

This is one of those things. Anyone with any street sense knows the sham interviews will happen. But the talking heads make it out that it will change the world. A lot of the population believes what they are told this way.

Quote: AZDuffman

This is one of those things. Anyone with any street sense knows the sham interviews will happen. But the talking heads make it out that it will change the world. A lot of the population believes what they are told this way.

I mean, any interview might be considered a, 'Sham,' if there's a job candidate that you want badly enough that all he has to do is accept the job. That being said, in the non-NFL world, people hire people who they are friends with or professionally network with all the time...and there's not necessarily a requirement that they have to interview people who they know they are not hiring, except maybe some large businesses do that for one reason or another.

The one argument that can be made for the Rooney Rule is that it can arguably give other potential coaches/executives a chance to go into one of these, 'Sham,' interviews and just knock it out of the park. I don't know that such has ever happened, but the goal of the Rooney Rule (which is definitely flawed, but I don't know what you'd replace it with) is to get GM's at least talking to people who they might not otherwise talk to.

Quote: AZDuffman

Its a chick show, why would you watch?

I live with a chick. She has had it on before when she was off work for a few weeks; it was horrible in both of our eyes.

I don’t need to watch hours of it to see how they act…it only takes about two minutes.

Geez…

Another interesting thing about the lawsuit, aside from the fact that the teams are just following the NFL's rule, is that the Broncos recently (2017-2018) had Vance Joseph as their head coach, who is black. If the Giants ever had a black HC, it hasn't been anytime recently, so maybe he has a better argument there. I just don't see how you can win a lawsuit against a team for complying with a rule that the organizing body requires they comply with.

That being said, you pretty much throw it at the wall and see what sticks in terms of naming counts and defendants, so that's probably part of it. I'm also not really sure what the damages are he is claiming with respect to the teams that didn't hire him, but perhaps I will look at the Civil Complaint for more specifics when I have the time.

Quote: Mission146

I mean, any interview might be considered a, 'Sham,' if there's a job candidate that you want badly enough that all he has to do is accept the job. That being said, in the non-NFL world, people hire people who they are friends with or professionally network with all the time...and there's not necessarily a requirement that they have to interview people who they know they are not hiring, except maybe some large businesses do that for one reason or another.

That happens. I once got a job because I knew a woman who knew this woman who knew the boss was looking. Between that and my LinkedIn page he said he basically did not want to interview me other than to just see how I was to get along with. Funny thing is I never even met the second woman! She went on sick leave before I got there and never came back.

With coaches it will be a stronger network. The NFL has gotten away from hiring college coaches. So someone will know about someone at some team who seems a fit.

Quote:

The one argument that can be made for the Rooney Rule is that it can arguably give other potential coaches/executives a chance to go into one of these, 'Sham,' interviews and just knock it out of the park. I don't know that such has ever happened, but the goal of the Rooney Rule (which is definitely flawed, but I don't know what you'd replace it with) is to get GM's at least talking to people who they might not otherwise talk to.

I prospect for jobs like that in reverse. When I hired people sometimes I would interview anyone because in winter I had the time. Let me practice my interview skills and always hoped. A couple times guys just wandered into the office and we put them on. Lower stakes than the NFL of course.

What is not asked is how many blacks are working their way up the coaching ladder? It is rare the great player who makes the great coach. The great coach is more the one who worked the sidelines and learned how everything worked. Are blacks filling the pipeline in these jobs? Similar thing in NASCAR when asked why so few black drivers. Well, you have to race at smaller tracks and circuits to run NASCAR. There were few blacks in that pipeline. What is the path of an NFL coach?

Quote: Mission146

Another interesting thing about the lawsuit, aside from the fact that the teams are just following the NFL's rule, is that the Broncos recently (2017-2018) had Vance Joseph as their head coach, who is black. If the Giants ever had a black HC, it hasn't been anytime recently, so maybe he has a better argument there. I just don't see how you can win a lawsuit against a team for complying with a rule that the organizing body requires they comply with.

That being said, you pretty much throw it at the wall and see what sticks in terms of naming counts and defendants, so that's probably part of it. I'm also not really sure what the damages are he is claiming with respect to the teams that didn't hire him, but perhaps I will look at the Civil Complaint for more specifics when I have the time.

He's also claiming he was offered 100k to throw games to improve draft picks.

Quote: rxwine

He's also claiming he was offered 100k to throw games to improve draft picks.

It will be interesting to see (assuming no settlement) if he has enough to prove that to the satisfaction of a jury. I think that NFL fans often suspect teams of, "Tanking," but to actually offer money on direct for a coach to tank for draft capital would be a firestorm if it can be proven.

Quote: AZDuffman

That happens. I once got a job because I knew a woman who knew this woman who knew the boss was looking. Between that and my LinkedIn page he said he basically did not want to interview me other than to just see how I was to get along with. Funny thing is I never even met the second woman! She went on sick leave before I got there and never came back.

With coaches it will be a stronger network. The NFL has gotten away from hiring college coaches. So someone will know about someone at some team who seems a fit.

That's the way I look at it. With most jobs, if you don't have an, 'In,' then you have to sell the person interviewing you that you would be good at doing the job. One aspect that makes the NFL a little bit different is that not only is it a bit of a closer-knit thing, but you also get to see the work of HC's/DC's/OC's and other members of various coaching staffs every single week in real time, if you want to. With that, they've kind of already interviewed (in a sense) before the sit down interview process, at least, teams think they know what they are getting with someone.

Quote:

I prospect for jobs like that in reverse. When I hired people sometimes I would interview anyone because in winter I had the time. Let me practice my interview skills and always hoped. A couple times guys just wandered into the office and we put them on. Lower stakes than the NFL of course.

What is not asked is how many blacks are working their way up the coaching ladder? It is rare the great player who makes the great coach. The great coach is more the one who worked the sidelines and learned how everything worked. Are blacks filling the pipeline in these jobs? Similar thing in NASCAR when asked why so few black drivers. Well, you have to race at smaller tracks and circuits to run NASCAR. There were few blacks in that pipeline. What is the path of an NFL coach?

This is an interesting point that I haven't contemplated. It's basically the same thing that you'll often hear about NHL players; there just aren't very many black people who play hockey---which seems to be true.

People often like to cite the percentage of black players relative to black coaches in the NFL, but as you point out, many NFL coaches started their journeys without ever being a player. For example, Belichick went directly out of college and into being an assistant at the NFL level. That's basically the tree for many coaches. Of course, if someone is on the field, then that means they are not coaching...so the guys who get right into coaching have that many more years of experience.

One of the most successful black NFL coaches, Mike Tomlin, never played in the NFL and himself went directly from college to being an assistant coach with various college teams before making his way to the NFL.

More recently, Josh McDaniels went directly from college to being an assistant coach and never played in the NFL.

I think there are a combination of factors involved, and in the case of some individual teams and/or people, maybe race does play a factor...but what you said can also be a factor.

With that, the question is, proportionally, are would-be black coaches not pursuing these opportunities at these lower assistant coaching levels...or ARE they pursuing them and just not getting them, or both?

Only one time did I hire someone I didn't know I needed. He happened to catch me on a day I had time to see him. I wasn't looking for anyone but had a coffee while a chatted with him. His skill set, experience and attitude impressed me so much I offered him a job. I told him I wasn't even sure what his job would be at that point but I could keep him busy and virtually created a job for him.