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Quote: AZDuffman

You cannot keep pumping things into your body and expect no negative results. If you are not allowed to get sick once in awhile you get weak. When I was a kid parents mixed you with others to get chicken pox. You got over it. And it was the best way to get immunity. Today this amazes people. That which does not kill us makes us stronger.

That is true and great. Unless of course you are one of those that dies.

Quote: kenarman

That is true and great. Unless of course you are one of those that dies.

We all die eventually.

Quote: AZDuffman

You cannot keep pumping things into your body and expect no negative results. If you are not allowed to get sick once in awhile you get weak. When I was a kid parents mixed you with others to get chicken pox. You got over it. And it was the best way to get immunity. Today this amazes people. That which does not kill us makes us stronger.

But you're almost advocating the whole idea of immunizations. Because the basic idea is expose someone to a weakened or dead version of a harmful or deadly biologic, and let the body build the natural immunity before it encounters the real thing.

If I was trying to argue medicine to a group of "natural" freaks, I'd point out that most of medicine is synthetic drugs whereas vaccines are about as close as you can get to natural medical treatment.

Quote: rxwine

But you're almost advocating the whole idea of immunizations. Because the basic idea is expose someone to a weakened or dead version of a harmful or deadly biologic, and let the body build the natural immunity before it encounters the real thing.

If I was trying to argue medicine to a group of "natural" freaks, I'd point out that most of medicine is synthetic drugs whereas vaccines are about as close as you can get to natural medical treatment.

I am advocating do it natural. Chicken Pox was just uncomfortable. Minimal long term harm, the younger you got it the better. A week and it was over for life. Compared to injecting who knows what, better to just catch them. Now, when Smallpox existed it was different. That one killed. Though again, the younger you got it the better. Blacks handled it better than Europeans. Indians, well, it is what defeated the Indians.

Smallpox vax ended in the USA between 1972 and 1975 or so. My sister never got one, my brother and I did. If we have these diseases as extinct in the USA as we did smallpox back then it is time to cut back on vax programs.

Quote: AZDuffman

I am advocating do it natural. Chicken Pox was just uncomfortable. Minimal long term harm, the younger you got it the better. A week and it was over for life. Compared to injecting who knows what, better to just catch them. Now, when Smallpox existed it was different. That one killed. Though again, the younger you got it the better. Blacks handled it better than Europeans. Indians, well, it is what defeated the Indians.

Smallpox vax ended in the USA between 1972 and 1975 or so. My sister never got one, my brother and I did. If we have these diseases as extinct in the USA as we did smallpox back then it is time to cut back on vax programs.

Shingles is a recurrence of the chicken pox virus later in life as it lies dormant in your system, also closely related to herpes. Talk to anybody who has experienced shingles and you won't take chicken pox so lightly. Shingles can be totally debilitating and last for months.

Quote: rxwine

You would think the economically minded would consider the impact of sick days on the work force if nothing else in their anti-vax zeal. Including parents missing work to take care of kids.
And the more this anti-vax trend continues, the bigger the impact.

If we factored in work force impact virtually all schools would close.

Many diseases are thought to be caused or influenced by clean environments. See Rook's Old Friends theory were humans evolved to have soil borne pathogens in their gut. That is why children with autism and ulcers were often from wealthy homes. the gut-brain and immune system are linked.

Probably a dozen reasons for chronic diseases but vaccinations are near the bottom of the list.

This is not a troll post but real questions:


What is the effect on health (incl. cause of death) in society for unvaccinated people versus:

1-alcohol (incl. drunk driving)
2--obesity

Quote: aceofspades

What is the effect on health (incl. cause of death) in society for unvaccinated people versus:

Unvaccinated does not determine social class or circumstances. Unvaccinated because of poverty means that poverty itself will be the primary effect on health, so unable to afford decent booze, unable to afford vitamins and probably not educated enough to monitor their alcohol intake. Less likely to consume a healthy diet or to afford gym memberships but more likely to engage in manual labor and to have to walk.

Quote: aceofspades

This is not a troll post but real questions:


What is the effect on health (incl. cause of death) in society for unvaccinated people versus:

1-alcohol (incl. drunk driving)
2--obesity

It will depend on the society. In the USA we have gotten rid of most of these infections. You can easily go your entire life unvaccinated with no issue. If you are under age 55 or so chances are you have never met someone who had measles, mumps, etc. Chicken Pox yes, that is about it. OTOH, almost everyone this age has known someone who has had a DUI or/and a drinking problem.

Flipside, a Central American population will not have as good of control of these infections. We used to hear about having to "get your shots" before travel to these places. OTOH, there are so many other health problems in these places that alcohol will not be a comparative problem.

Quote: AZDuffman

It will depend on the society. In the USA we have gotten rid of most of these infections. You can easily go your entire life unvaccinated with no issue. If you are under age 55 or so chances are you have never met someone who had measles, mumps, etc. Chicken Pox yes, that is about it. OTOH, almost everyone this age has known someone who has had a DUI or/and a drinking problem.

Flipside, a Central American population will not have as good of control of these infections. We used to hear about having to "get your shots" before travel to these places. OTOH, there are so many other health problems in these places that alcohol will not be a comparative problem.

Long post..... coming.....

Whoever thinks that 'all these things we are putting in our bodies' cause more harm than good is JUST PLAIN WRONG. Life expectancy is on a constant up tick THANKS TO all these things (prescription drugs, vaccines, vitamins, etc...) we put in our bodies. Might there be SPECIFIC examples of things that have caused more harm than good, of course.... (thalidomide).

Those that think that the unvaccinated only affect themselves are just plain wrong. There are a subset of the population that CANNOT take certain vaccines often due to some immunosuppression, and are at high risk for the diseases that are essentially eliminated by the REST of the population being vaccinated.

I am SURE that alcohol causes far more harm than the unvaccinated as I see the results of DUI on a daily basis. The numbers of measles cases, even at the high number being mentioned, pales in comparison to DUI cases that result in accidents, not even including cirrhosis and other medical conditions associated with alcohol.

Obesity as well is far more concerning to overall health than vaccination shortfalls, but it is clearly not communicable. But the costs to society of obesity are in the billions for sure. "300 is the new 200"......

I've traveled to a few places where I had to "get shots" and "take pills" for a bunch of possible conditions (malaria being a main one). I think they were all just technically "recommended" as opposed to mandatory. One of the anti malarial pills did cause weird mental things, which I would say just fell short of hallucinations.