Gigafactory

Quote: Nareed

moving hydrogen around isn't precisely easy, either.

Yes, totally true. The filling stations themselves are complicated. Consider this: the new hydrogen stations currently being built in California have a maximum fueling capacity of 180 kilograms of hydrogen per day. The problem isn't just a matter of adding more storage tanks: the H needs to be continuously compressed and replenished for the pumps to work properly. A Toyota Mirai has a capacity to hold 5 kg. The bottom line: only 36 Toyota Mirais can use California's new hydrogen filling stations each day. (How many gasoline cars can be served by a typical busy gas station in a day? 100? 200?)

Currently, this isn't much of a problem since there are virtually no hydrogen cars on the road. But it's an ironic paradox: the greatest advantage of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles over electricic vehicles is that the fill up time is quick & easy. Toyota's misguided goals are self-defeating becuase if fuel cell cars actually do become more popular, it will be exponentially more difficult to fill 'em up.

Quote: reno

The problem isn't just a matter of adding more storage tanks: the H needs to be continuously compressed and replenished for the pumps to work properly.

I don't know how much a problem the size of the hydrogen molecule is.

When you make something airtight, it needs to keep rather large molecules in, namely N2, O2 and CO2. H2 is very small in comparison. Your average plastic water bottle allows air to leak in. A car's tank full of hydrogen could, conceivably, leak small amounts due to the limitations of materials.

I wonder if it would be better to develop some compound which could release hydrogen in a controlled, catalyzed reaction. For instance, if you add sodium to water, the oxygen in the water molecule binds to the sodium, allowing the hydrogen to escape.

This is a terrible example, as the reaction is rather violent, the hydrogen escapes explosively, and the whole thing can easily blow up (I recall doing the experiment in high school, complete with lighting the escaping hydrogen to produce the characteristic blue flame).

But maybe something else might work.

Oh, to give some idea of hydrogen leaking, consider helium. It's about as massive, but smaller, than a hydrogen molecule. A latex balloon filled with helium will slowly deflate over a few days. At one time in my childhood I tried keeping a helium balloon. I think after about a week, or maybe two, it had insufficient helium to float anymore.

Anyway, helium is smaller because it doesn't bind into molecules. it's completely inert. If there are tanks which can contain it with minimal leakage, they should work as well for Hydrogen.

To me, hydrogen vehicles leave the consumer even more dependent on outside service and expertise than internal combustion engines. Only thing worse would be nuclear cars.

Quote: rxwine

To me, hydrogen vehicles leave the consumer even more dependent on outside service and expertise than internal combustion engines. Only thing worse would be nuclear cars.

You may be underestimating the energy contained in fissile materials. There's no question of making even a convection, water-cooled reactor for cars (it wouldn't be safe). But assuming you could, then a few kilos of uranium or even thorium would give you a range in the tens of thousands of miles.

I'm sure the figures for nuclear aircraft carriers are out there. But to give you an idea, the Voyagers, powered by radioactive decay thermocouple, have been going on for almost 40 years. Now, granted this only produces electricity, and the probes don't really use that much, and systems have been turned off to keep up (or is it down?) with diminishing power availability, their instruments have been going nonstop for years with only a few kilos of radioisotopes.

Quote: Nareed

There's no question of making even a convection, water-cooled reactor for cars (it wouldn't be safe).

Yeah, I don't really need that kind of trade -off

I'm predicting that Face will complain that it has no heart, no soul. Just an emotionless, sterile, bland machine.

Anyway, Porsche has introduced an all-electric concept car which is intended to compete with Tesla's Model S. (They'll be deciding in December whether to actually put it into production.) The Mission E has 590 horsepower, 0 to 62mph in under 3.5 seconds, hits 124mph in 12 seconds, laps Nurburgring in less than 8 minutes. It uses two electric motors (one per axle) for an all-wheel-drive system that distributes torque to each wheel as necessary to maximize power delivery without wheel slip. All-wheel steering adds to the torque vectoring for even sharper roadholding. To keep weight to a minimum, the body mixes aluminum, steel, and carbon-fiber reinforced polymer. Also present are carbon-fiber wheels. Battery range is expected to be in the 300 mile ballpark.

The most interesting statistic, though, has to do with the time it takes to charge the batteries:

Quote: Autoblog

The concept utilizes an 800-volt system (!) that Porsche claims can charge the sedan to 80 percent in just 15 minutes, assuming you can find a source for that much energy. That would be enough to offer about 249 miles of range in less time than getting a cup of coffee at a busy Starbucks. The E could also use a traditional 400-volt charger or power up inductively.

No word on pricing, I'm guessing it will probably be more expensive than a Nissan Leaf. Just a guess.

Quote: reno

I'm predicting that Face will complain that it has no heart, no soul. Just an emotionless, sterile, bland machine.

Anyway, Porsche has introduced an all-electric concept car which is intended to compete with Tesla's Model S. (They'll be deciding in December whether to actually put it into production.) The Mission E has 590 horsepower, 0 to 62mph in under 3.5 seconds, hits 124mph in 12 seconds, laps Nurburgring in less than 8 minutes. It uses two electric motors (one per axle) for an all-wheel-drive system that distributes torque to each wheel as necessary to maximize power delivery without wheel slip. All-wheel steering adds to the torque vectoring for even sharper roadholding. To keep weight to a minimum, the body mixes aluminum, steel, and carbon-fiber reinforced polymer. Also present are carbon-fiber wheels. Battery range is expected to be in the 300 mile ballpark.

The most interesting statistic, though, has to do with the time it takes to charge the batteries:

Quote: Autoblog

The concept utilizes an 800-volt system (!) that Porsche claims can charge the sedan to 80 percent in just 15 minutes, assuming you can find a source for that much energy. That would be enough to offer about 249 miles of range in less time than getting a cup of coffee at a busy Starbucks. The E could also use a traditional 400-volt charger or power up inductively.

No word on pricing, I'm guessing it will probably be more expensive than a Nissan Leaf. Just a guess.

That is a beautiful car, but the front headlights are a little odd.

I really like the potential for inductive charging, and the suicide rear doors are "awesome". Until somebody opens one while driving. I would take that chance, but I am probably a little short on funds.

Why does the S car have to look so cheesy when the roadster is so cool, is there no medium?

Would someone please make an affordable [electric], extended cab pickup truck with a 300 mile [actual] range for delivery's?

Quote: reno

I'm predicting that Face will complain that it has no heart, no soul. Just an emotionless, sterile, bland machine.

Someone is paying attention. I'm flattered =)

But we need to be clear, here. I call 'em like I see 'em. The Leaf, Volt, et al are bland, soulless, sterile, godawful piles of mediocrity. Not because they're electric, but because a large portion of new cars just are that way. I have noticed more and more '15's and '16's catching my eye, so I'm not quite as rabid as usual. But just about every single thing from, oh, '78 until about '12 had all the personality and razzle-dazzle of a half peeled orange that was left on the counter 3 weeks ago.

This, this ain't bad. I similarly gave good marks to the all-electric Mercedes SLS AMG. This looks a bit like a Panamera, but I dunno, maybe it's the hick in me. I fancy a good station wagon. I likewise enjoyed the Dodge Magnum during its short run.

What really gets me is the part that got you. 15 minute recharge with 300mi range? You had my curiosity; now you have my attention.

What does it mean "'If' you can find a power supply"? Can you not get the 15 minutes off a standard 220v in the home? Perhaps Paco/petro/kenarman will drop some knowledge. Because if you can only get it from, I dunno, some industrial 440+, it's really a moot point. I'd hear more about this miraculous charging time.

This... kind of excites me. It's one thing for some eccentric billionaire to go crazy and try to reinvent the wheel. It's the same thing when the Big 6 (or however many there are still remaining) start pumping out bland models to appease the Whole Foods crowd. But when Merc gets in on the action and goes over the top... that's something. Dragging Porsche along, too? It won't be long before others have to come along. Maybe Lexus (probably Lexus), Aston Martin, Maseratti... someone is going to be next, and soon.

I predict that within the next seven years, certainly within all of our lifetimes, electric is gonna hit the track. And when it does, that's when you're going to see a mindblowing acceleration in technology. Racing has paved the way for just about every single innovation in the modern car, and I predict this will be no different. And when it does, sure, I'll hop on board. Assuming things are comparable (cost, maintenance, insurance, charge time), I'm not beyond checking one out. If you go back to some of my very first posts on the subject, I said I was all for an electric truck. There are some things a truck is. Electric does them all better, and it's not even close. This, plus my prediction, means it's getting there.

Needs a playing card in the spokes, though. One thing electric will never score higher marks in is presence. Even the McLaren P1 seems hollow and empty when it's just on the juice. Not until you get 900hp surging through the noise pipes is the vision complete =)

After years of delays, Tesla is finally delivering the Model X crossover SUV.

Quote: Jalopnik

...the Tesla Model X features two motors. The one in front is rated to 259 horsepower, the rear is 503. Combined torque is 713 lb-ft of torque which translates to a completely unreasonable 3.2-second 0-60 time and an 11.7-second quarter mile in “Ludicrous” mode. That’s an option on the “performance” (P) spec (denoted by a little line under the badge). Without crazy-mode activated the car goes to 60 in 3.8, and the lowly 90D base model takes a pathetic 4.8 seconds. Top speed for all Model X-es is 155 MPH.

What makes these numbers so jaw-dropping is that we're talking about a 5,400 lb. vehicle the size of a minivan.