Hey FrGamble!

Quote: FrGamble

I knew one of these posts was coming. It seems like if it has been a few days Bob gets bored and writes some nonsense post demonstrating his complete lack of understanding and unwillingness to have anything close to a rational discussion. What I have learned so far:

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1. It is a great sacrifice to try and engage in
any meaningful discussion with Bob.

So you won't even defend the
'sacrifice' Jesus made anymore?
It indefensible, that's why.

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2. Prayer does work, that has been proved
again and again through miracles and countless
experiences of billions of people.

Miracle is just another name for something
that can't be immediately explained. You'll
never hear a scientist use the word. They
look for the rational explanation first, as
would any sane person.

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3. God's love is so present just about everywhere
you look.

So 'present' you can't point out a
single example of it. Yet I can point
out hundreds where it's for sure
NOT at work. Don't you find that odd
and a major hole in your religions
argument?

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4. I have learned that Bob is a sucker for
conspiracy theories and fake news.

Not really. I've been doing this a lot
longer than I've been talking to you
since 2014. When you keep encountering
the same info from a myriad of sources,
and the Church only has basically one
source, which is 'believe us or shut
up', you start to draw conclusions.

Interesting how you addressed none
of the points I made, you only turned
it back on me. In a real debate this
would be major points against you
because you used the tactic that
you can't use in formal debate, you
made it personal and made it about
me and not the issues. Your quiver
has run out of arrows.

The first point I made is the most telling,
the 'sacrifice' Jesus made is NOT a
sacrifice. Giving up your life for a
measly 36 hours and then being lavishly
rewarded is not a sacrifice to any thinking
person. None of the other 100K+ people
who died on the cross got to come back
36 hours later and win the lottery. How
many Xtians have actually thought this
thru and ignored the smoke and mirrors
explanation the Church spews.

Okay sorry about that little rant. Let's get back to the debate:

Quote: Evenbob

So you won't even defend the
'sacrifice' Jesus made anymore?
It indefensible, that's why.

I'm curious if you could even name my defenses in our argument? A good debate means the other person listens and then responds. I have defended the sacrifice of Jesus but you never mention any arguments against them you just say the above as if we had never talked about it before. Let me express what I think your objections are and respond. Maybe you could try the same thing.

You believe that it is not a sacrifice because Jesus came back to life and thus making any permanent or real sacrifice impossible.
My response:
First I disagree with your understanding of sacrifice. If a soldier jumps on a grenade to save his troops we all agree that is a sacrifice. If he dies and believes that he will live forever in Heaven because he is acting like Jesus does that mean his sacrifice is not a real sacrifice? If he survives by some miracle or the grenade never goes off does that mean he never made a sacrifice? I think you are making a mistake in only looking at the consequences or results of a sacrifice instead of the sacrifice itself.
That being said Jesus still suffers with us and for us. God is eternal and His suffering does not end in the Resurrection. In all the Resurrection accounts Jesus shows them His hands and side and they see the wounds. Jesus as eternal God offered one sacrifice for all sins, past, present, and future. This means that Christ still suffers with us and for us when we sin, experience injustice, persecution, or deal with the brokenness of this world. This is clear in the writings of the New Testament and the prophecies of the Old Testament. Jesus doesn't just suffer once on the cross, He suffers every time we suffer because He loves us and died for us in an eternal act of love.

You also believe that Jesus knew with certainty that He would be Resurrected and you think this makes the sacrifice not real.
My response:
I think you now understand that while fully God Jesus was also fully man. This means that Jesus in His humanity was limited by our human intellect. He had perfect faith and trust in God His heavenly father, but this is not the type of mathematical certainty you think he had for your argument to hold. In fact Jesus is not just the perfect model of love for us as humans, He is also the perfect model for faith and trust in God.

I await your response.

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Miracle is just another name for something
that can't be immediately explained. You'll
never hear a scientist use the word. They
look for the rational explanation first, as
would any sane person.

Of course you have to look for other normal explanations first, you have to. Of course science wouldn't declare something a miracle they would have no business doing so. Miracles are statements of metaphsyics not science. They are proclaimed by theologians after the scientific explanations have been exhausted. You can believe in them or not but you can't just write them off we just have to wait till we figure it out by science. That sounds like atheism of the gaps. If someone said because we don't understand electricity or anti-matter then it was because of God you would rightly doubt them. If someone said because we don't understand how the Shroud of Turin, Our Lady of Guadalupe, or how any miraculous cure happened but it can't be supernatural you would be right to doubt them.

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So 'present' you can't point out a
single example of it. Yet I can point
out hundreds where it's for sure
NOT at work. Don't you find that odd
and a major hole in your religions
argument?

I think I am going to need some help from you on this one. Can you tell me what you are looking for, like an example? You said you were looking for a concrete example of God's love. Maybe you could give me a concrete example of love you have experienced so I can have some sense of what you are looking for?

Quote: FrGamble

First I disagree with your understanding of sacrifice.

Lets go with official dictionary
definition:

'to give up something important or valued for the sake of other considerations.'

Under this definition, Jesus gave
up nothing except 36 hours of
his life. Would he have lived forever
if he hadn't died? Hardly, in fact for
his time he was already middle aged.

So he gave up his life for 36 hours,
came back hale and hardy, and was
taken bodily to heaven. And for this
you drop to your knees in gratitude?
It makes no common sense, it seriously
doesn't. If this wasn't such a grave
religious matter, I would think it was
a practical joke.

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Miracles are statements of metaphsyics not science.

met·a·phys·ics
/ˌmedəˈfiziks/

"abstract theory with no basis in reality."

Bingo. You want us to take these
events that have no basis in reality
and pretend they're real? Why
would we do that if we weren't
trying to make some obscure
religious point. Oh, wait.... That's
what you ARE doing..

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Can you tell me what you are looking for, like an example?

If I wanted to give examples of Bill
Gates charity work, I could find a
hundred. Xtians say god's wondrous
love is everywhere. So where are
the massive healing's at children's
hospitals. Where is the wiping out
of some horrible disease. All we
get is vagaries, like gods love is
forever, gods love never fails,
god loves you no matter what.

This also describes how my dog
feels about me. Except his love
is real and provable. It's not some
vague concept floating around in
the philosophy of a religion that
we're supposed to believe in with
zero proof.

Added later: I appreciate you
speaking here for the last 6
years. You may not know this
but most Xtians will not talk
with you if they think you doubt
any part of their religion, especially
the sacrifice that's at the center
of it. Most are weak in their resolve
and lack the proper knowledge
to discuss it properly. It's also true
that most priests would not discuss
this for very long. My friend the
ex priest has tried to have discussions
with active priests and they don't
last long. Why you've done it for
so long is a mystery, you must be
getting something out of it. Other
priests I've dealt with have have a very
narrow attention span for people
who disagree with their religion.

Quote: Evenbob

Lets go with official dictionary
definition:

'to give up something important or valued for the sake of other considerations.'

Under this definition, Jesus gave
up nothing except 36 hours of
his life.

You need to explain why you think suffering and dying regardless of what happens afterwards is not a sacrifice. Your definition doesn't say anything about a sacrifice having to go longer than 36 hours. Why is it not a sacrifice to give up something important or valued (and what could be more important or valued that the very life of God) for the sake of other considerations. It seems based on the definition you have given that Jesus' sacrifice is a perfect sacrifice.

If you say it is not then you have to say more specifically why. You can't just say over and over that because He resurrected it is no longer a sacrifice. Defend why you say that! Do you think that a better definition of sacrifice requires a permanent giving up of something?

If you do remember that there are many examples and analogies that will disprove that definition. However, even given such a definition of sacrifice Jesus fulfills it. Remember that Jesus' act is an eternal act, because it is an act of God it extends outside of time. Jesus still suffers with all of us as we carry our own crosses, the pain of our sins, our illnesses, and our difficulties. The Resurrection is an eternal act as well that gives us all hope that evil and death will never have the final word. So I hope you see that Jesus' sacrifice is indeed on-going and permanent.

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met·a·phys·ics
/ˌmedəˈfiziks/

"abstract theory with no basis in reality."

Where did you get that definition? In a debate you should really name sources especially ones that are very strange. Here is the definition from "The American College Dictionary":

1. that branch of philosophy which treats of first principles, including the sciences of being (ontology) and of the origin and structure of the universe (cosmology). It is always intimately connected with a theory of knowledge (epistemology).

What do you think of that definition?

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If I wanted to give examples of Bill
Gates charity work, I could find a
hundred. Xtians say god's wondrous
love is everywhere. So where are
the massive healing's at children's
hospitals. Where is the wiping out
of some horrible disease. All we
get is vagaries, like gods love is
forever, gods love never fails,
god loves you no matter what.

Thank you for clarifying. Bill Gates makes it possible for his hundreds of charitable works to happen. God is the inspiration and source and makes possible literally millions of charitable works. God is everywhere, He is in the children's hospitals faithful believers started to wipe out horrible diseases and bring healing to the sick. It sounds like you are not counting it as God's loving act unless God becomes human Himself comes down and physically does it (I think that sounds familiar). You would have to recount Bill Gates' charitable works if you only counted the ones he himself physically did and still Jesus would beat him.

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This also describes how my dog
feels about me. Except his love
is real and provable. It's not some
vague concept floating around in
the philosophy of a religion

Please make no mistake about it, my religion is not about a concept - it is all about a historical real person! A real loving relationship with Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate, is everything and there is nothing else. We aren't talking about vague concepts but a relationship of love that is FAR more real and provable than the love an animal has for you.

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Added later: I appreciate you

Thank you so saying that especially after my little tirade earlier. I really appreciated the comments from others to keep our discussion more of a debate or a discussion. I really hope you are okay with that and be a little kinder and not so antagonistic. Let's really try to learn from each other and understand each other better. I feel like I have a better understanding of where you are coming from and your arguments, but I see very little evidence that you understand where I am coming from or what I am saying.

Quote: FrGamble

You need to explain why you think suffering and dying regardless of what happens afterwards is not a sacrifice.

So the other 100K+ people that died
the same way sacrificed something?
They did not, they were unwillingly
punished. Jesus is the only one who
caught the brass ring, who won the
eternal lottery.

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Remember that Jesus' act is an eternal act, because it is an act of God it extends outside of time. Jesus still suffers with all of us

This is where you go off the deep
end and over the cliff. This is little
more than intellectual nonsense,
a lot of fluffery and nice sounding
unprovable baloney to sell your
product. Patent medicine salesmen
were excellent at this tactic.

1. that branch of philosophy

Quote: Evenbob

So the other 100K+ people that died
the same way sacrificed something?

This seems like a non sequitor. I never mentioned anything about the others who were crucified, but it they too were willingly laying down their lives so that others would be free then they were surely sacrificing as well. It might be a good question to clarify your position. If one of the other thousands who were crucified was innocent but chose to die for his friends so they would go free it is surely a sacrifice, correct? Now what if that same crucified person goes to Heaven, does that mean he never really sacrificed anything?

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Jesus is the only one who
caught the brass ring, who won the
eternal lottery.

The man dying right next to him was promised paradise. Jesus died so that all of us can receive the gift of Heaven and eternal life.

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This is little
more than intellectual nonsense,
a lot of fluffery and nice sounding
unprovable baloney

It is a theological point, but it is pretty clear. Throughout the Scriptures we are reminded that Jesus continues to offer Himself constantly for us and that when we suffer He suffers with us. When Saul is converted by a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus Jesus says, "Why are you persecuting me?" Jesus is persecuted and suffers with those who experience injustice in our world. God's actions reverberate throughout history and are outside of time. It might sound flowery and pie and the sky to you but it is what our Church teaches. Therefore your argument that Jesus' sacrifice is diminished because He only experiences the torture, beatings, suffering, and death on a cross for a day (if it ever had any merit, which I don't think it did) is found to groundless.

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And there you have it, in 4 words. That
is the extent of your gods power on
earth and in the universe. His myth
inspires...

UhHuh. Of which you have not a
single piece of evidence to back it up.
It's ALL conceptual, the myth
surrounding Jesus. Every bit of it.
Xtian leaders talk and talk and talk,
propping up their empty religion
for the masses. And because most
people are horrendously lazy when
it comes concepts, many of them
buy it because it's the easy path.
Go along to get along.

What don't I have evidence for? Do you need evidence that Jesus was a real historical person? Do you need evidence concerning the Bible, which is the most well attested ancient text by leaps and bounds? Do you need evidence that billions of people have a personal relationship with the living Lord Jesus Christ in prayer? Do you need evidence concerning the lives that have been transformed by coming to faith in Jesus Christ?

I am very glad you recognize that Jesus Christ is still inspiring people today to build hospitals and go on mission and do wonderful things to help others. I am not sure why you think this is somehow a weakness of Jesus Christ? Do you wish He was still here on Earth performing miracles for you to believe? He is asking us to be His hands, His feet, His ears, eyes, and mouth to the world. Christians are the Body of Christ here today in a real tangible way. We continue His work inspired by His Holy Spirit.

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You were trained to believe a story
that has no evidence and take it
at face value as being absolute
truth.

If that is what you think of me and of my formation I can say clearly that you have little regard for me and do not understand me. No one is told to believe a story that has no evidence at face value as absolute truth. What a stupid and insulting thing to suggest! Why do you say these things?

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For me to have faith,
I need more than somebody elses
word that something is true. I need
actual verifiable evidence.

SO DO I! Faith needs to be verified by evidence and there are lots of it, but obviously none of it you acknowledge to be evidence. The evidence is right in front of your face. You are trying to drive a parked car. If you want to come to know Jesus Christ. If you desire His loving forgiveness. If you too are inspired by His becoming your brother, suffering and dying eternally out of love for you, and the hope of the Resurrection. If any of this means anything to you and you want to find out if it is true then pray. Ask Jesus to come into your heart and help your unbelief. Make an appointment with the closest Catholic Priest to you and go in and sit down and ask about how you can start a life of prayer. The only evidence that will move you is your personal experience and I promise you that the Lord Jesus Christ wants to embrace you, forgive you, love you, and bring joy and peace to you in this life and the next.

Quote: FrGamble

This seems like a non sequitor.

If one of them did die for his
friends it was more of a sacrifice
than Jesus made. He wasn't up
and about 36 hours later, he
didn't go bodily to heaven. I
know you see this, that there
was no real sacrifice, and
surely not one of the size
required to save all mankind.

I do remember that in the year
I was in the Xtian group, and
in all the inspirational tapes
I listened to, not a single
mention was ever made about
the number of people the Romans
crucified. I'm convinced now
many Xtians have no idea how
many because it's never talked
about. It hugely takes away from
the unique position it looks like
Jesus is in.

I didn't learn about the 100K till
I was studying witchcraft decades
later. They knew all the details
Xtians always conveniently leave
out.

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Throughout the Scriptures we are reminded that Jesus continues to offer Himself constantly for us

Someones hope and opinion, you act
like it's proven truth. It's just an idea
somebody thought up and wrote down,
it's meaningless without corroboration,
of which you have none.

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What don't I have evidence for?

For ANY of it. the entire myth surrounding
Jesus. You have nothing to verify if any
of it is true. You think if you act like you
do, that will convince people. And it does,
it convinces the gullible and the lazy. So
easy to just take your word with no
investigation. It's what con men do,
confidence men. They get your trust and
then tell you a made up story. Oldest game
in the world.

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I am very glad you recognize that Jesus Christ is still inspiring people today

He isn't inspiring anybody, stories
about him are. Just like stories about Buddha
do. So what.

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No one is told to believe a story that has no evidence at face value as absolute truth.

There is no evidence any of the Jesus
myth is true, so Xtians have to take
it at face value. Jesus might have been
crucified like 100,000 others, it proves
nothing. Again, that's why Xtains never
mention it, that Jesus died an extremely
common death for the times he lived
in.

Quote: Evenbob

If one of them did die for his
friends it was more of a sacrifice
than Jesus made. He wasn't up
and about 36 hours later, he
didn't go bodily to heaven.

So again your argument is that the Resurrection makes it not a real sacrifice. You have said this many times but have yet to support your reasoning. You have given a definition that did not support you, you have ignored the question asked to you many times about if it is a sacrifice to jump upon a grenade that never goes off, you refuse to support your argument so I don't know what to tell you. Until you can explain why God dying on a cross is not as big of a sacrifice than someone who died for his friend just because Jesus rose again I really cannot take you seriously. Keep in mind that Jesus' perfect faith and trust in God His Father was not informed by seeing the future, keep also in mind that Jesus becomes incarnate forever and still suffers with all who suffer in an eternal act of loving sacrifice on the cross.

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I'm convinced now
many Xtians have no idea how
many because it's never talked
about. It hugely takes away from
the unique position it looks like
Jesus is in.

Again please explain why in the world it matters how many people were crucified. What is unique is not the manner of death but the person who died. Jesus Christ, true God and true man, died for our sins and rose from the dead victorious. This is what is unique.

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Someones hope and opinion, you act
like it's proven truth. It's just an idea
somebody thought up and wrote down,

It is Christian theology. If you are going to argue about what Christians believe than you can't make a claim against what we believe and then when it is pointed out that you are wrong, you just deny the teaching because it shows you that you are wrong. You criticize Christian teaching by saying that Jesus' sacrifice was not a big deal because it was all over in 36 hours. When it is pointed out that Christians don't actually believe that you just ignore it and continue to criticize what you NOW KNOW is not really what Christian's believe. What is that called when someone knows that they are attacking something that is actually not held by his opponent?

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For ANY of it. the entire myth surrounding
Jesus. You have nothing to verify if any
of it is true.

There are historical records and the most ancient manuscripts by far supporting the Bible. We have historical sites and external sources and historians. We have an unbroken line of Popes going back to Peter and Jesus Himself. We have the fact that the faith in Jesus Christ Resurrected, which began with a small band of mostly uneducated fishermen, began to spread as all of these men were killed for their faith under great persecution and yet it was never denied and continued to spread until today it is the largest religion on Earth. Let me stop here to say I am NOT saying that the faith is true because of its growth and size, but it IS evidence to verify it. There are miracles and more testimonies of saints, holy men and women, exorcists, and the countless testimonies of faithful people.

Again you like to say this is because people are gullible and stupid. I think you are wrong, but even if you are right and nothing is true about the faith do you really think that it continues to inspire and grow still today. For over 2,000 years you think a religion based solely on false myths and lies can thrive and grow and create universities, make the greatest scientific discoveries, the most beautiful art, architecture, and music. I have to wonder about how gullible you must be if you really think all of this is based on one big urban legend. Check yourself here and ask if perhaps many of the people who do believe in Jesus Christ might not be just simpletons you look down your nose at. Be humble.

Quote: FrGamble

So again your argument is that the Resurrection makes it not a real sacrifice.

How could it be. The puzzle is,
why would anybody think it is
a sacrifice. If he had no idea he
was god, then it would be. But
your Church and the NT say
he knew full well who he was.
So no sacrifice.

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Again please explain why in the world it matters how many people were crucified.

Why is it never mentioned? It's
talked about like it was a rare
thing, a rare and awful
punishment. When it was really
as common as the sun coming
up every day. When you hear that,
it turns it into a yawner as far as
effect goes.

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It is Christian theology.

Exactly. Yet you speak it like
it's settled truth, no room for
argument or interpretation.

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There are historical records and the most ancient manuscripts by far supporting the Bible.

And yet smart people like Bart Ehrman
go from true believers to atheists after
studying all these manuscripts in depth.
How could that be..

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Again you like to say this is because people are gullible and stupid..

Never said stupid, I said gullible and
lazy. Which is true. People are
notoriously lazy about the religion
they're born into. They just accept
it and move on. Let others do all
the heavy lifting. That's why so many
of them get confused if you even
try and have a cursory discussion,
they don't even know there are other
opinions about their beliefs.

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how gullible you must be if you really think all of this is based on one big urban legend.

It's also based to some extent on the
testimonies of others in their group
as to their personal experiences.
Where people take every common
event and coincidence and blame
it on god working in their lives.
Anecdotal biased opinion, only
means something if you want it
to.

Quote: Evenbob

How could it be. The puzzle is,
why would anybody think it is
a sacrifice. If he had no idea he
was god, then it would be. But
your Church and the NT say
he knew full well who he was.
So no sacrifice.

First of all by you refusing to defend your position that because of the Resurrection it is not a sacrifice I am taking it that you no longer hold that. I also notice that you don't answer the question about a man jumping on a grenade being a sacrifice regardless of the consequences so that too leads me to believe you have some real issues holding that position.

Now you have moved on to the second objection I mentioned you have with the sacrifice of Jesus. You write the above as if we have never talked about this and it is a little shocking to me. You know what Christianity teaches about this but it is like you willingly forget, or more objectionable you continue to say things you know are not true. He knew He was God the Father only begotten Son and Messiah, but this knowledge comes through our limited human knowledge. I assume you think that Jesus could see the future clearly as if He was outside of time. This knowledge you think makes the sacrifice of Jesus different because He didn't need faith or trust in God knowing what would happen. However, we have already said that this is not Christian theology. He had perfect faith and complete trust in God His Heavenly Father but the Church and the NT make clear that He was not in His human intellect omniscient. I think I have been pretty clear on that point. Does that help you understand it a little better?

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When it was really
as common as the sun coming
up every day. When you hear that,
it turns it into a yawner as far as
effect goes.

First of all I think myself and archaeology disagree with you about how common it was, but I agree with you it was the most extreme punishment available to the Romans to truly put the fear of the empire into anyone. I also disagree that it was ever a yawner. The violent act of crucifixion was always extreme, like a public hanging it was always an awful spectacle, it was meant to be. However, this seems to be a side point that doesn't really pertain to the argument.

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Exactly. Yet you speak it like
it's settled truth, no room for
argument or interpretation.

There is plenty of room for argument but it is a settled truth for Christians. If you want to argue the theology please feel free to do so but it is not argument just to say it is wrong. Give a reason for why you think Christians are wrong about what they believe. I think you are just frustrated that Christian teaching is not as simplistic or oblivious as you like to make it out. Deal with the real teachings of Christianity and not what you want us to say.

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And yet smart people like Bart Ehrman
go from true believers to atheists after
studying all these manuscripts in depth.
How could that be..

Because Bart Ehrman has free will and can take certain points and arguments and make his decision based on them. However, it is not logical or good reasoning to say because Bart Ehrman doesn't believe then no one believes or should believe. There are many more who know more than Ehrman who do believe and many more that came to faith through a study of these manuscripts. How could that be...

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People are
notoriously lazy about the religion
they're born into. They just accept
it and move on.

People do this with their atheistic beliefs as well. What is your point?

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It's also based to some extent on the
testimonies of others in their group
as to their personal experiences.

You are thinking that everyone's personal experiences are like the personal experience you have heard about in your own family. Personal experiences are not limited to coincidences and getting green lights. The internal and awesome experiences that change lives when encountering the love of God in their hearts through prayer is the personal experience most are talking about.