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Hey FrGamble!
| July 9th, 2020 at 5:35:22 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 | I find it interesting where he mentions that Paul in his letters barely mentions anything about what Jesus said or did. That's because Paul did not know what Jesus said or did the gospels were not written until decades later. During the time of Paul the stories of what Jesus said wrere still being made up, were still being circulated and embellished. This is why we have to credit Paul with inventing the Christian religion. Everything he says is his own opinion based on nothing Jesus ever said. Because he had no idea what Jesus said. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| July 9th, 2020 at 7:34:31 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
I state them like they are the indisputable theology of Christianity, which they are. You're fighting against something that is not even Christian and you don't even know it. Keep up the good work trying to tear down falsehoods and I will join you. I agree that Jesus in His humanity was not all-knowing and that in the Incarnation He was not outside of time and space. Let's continue to knock down these heresies together!
I for sure saw his mistakes in history and in logic and in understanding the spread and meaning of Christianity. I did not see at all overwhelming evidence the NT cannot be take for any kind of truth or history. In fact nobody including Ehrman would agree with that statement you made. Differences in spelling and where people put a comma does not lead to any evidence at all that the most attested and agreed upon ancient text by far is wrong and not trustworthy. Again there is no other text anywhere near that time that we have copies as close to the original as the NT. You are swinging at the NT (and missing by the way) and in the process are destroying the credibility of anything we know of that time period. Just stop, it has been shown over and over that you and Ehrman are wrong. Give it up you have lost. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| July 9th, 2020 at 9:29:22 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
But you don't state them that way. You say them like they exist outside the religion, which they do not. But that's why you do it, so people will think they're universal truths and not just theological oddities that are theories and guesses.
Then you weren't paying attention. Did you watch it to the end when he was taking verse after verse attributed to Jesus and was showing it to be added later? Important verses. We can have no idea what was really said by Jesus. It's telling that Paul, decades before the gospels were written, knew nothing about what Jesus said and did. That's because it hadn't been invented yet. The stories were not circulating yet for Paul and his people to hear. Bottom line is, the NT is a mess of poorly copied and embellished misleading information. It's so open to interpretation that there are many confused and confusing off shoots of the religion. Then you have your Church throwing in saints and confession & putting Mary on a goddess level, and the thing is off the rails out of control from whatever it was originally intended to be. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| July 9th, 2020 at 9:59:16 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 | double If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| July 10th, 2020 at 6:53:20 AM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Well I do believe they are true outside my religion. Do you believe there really is no God or is that just a guess you have with no reason, logic, or evidence to support it that you know is wrong and don't tell anyone else about it?
Yes and to be honest I was disappointed. Granted he was trying to be very dramatic and almost theatrical, in fact it didn't seem to be a very intellectual debate, at least from his answers, but Ehrman wasn't really being fair. His level it seems to say that something was added later is simply if any manuscript doesn't agree with any other manuscript. That is just lazy and not true. There were lots of verses he mentioned that are in the vast majority of manuscripts and maybe there is one variant that omits or for some reason does not include it. Does that mean it was added or does it rather mean that it was removed for some reason by someone in a specific text? I'm kind of amazed that you seem so taken by his arguments.
What is really telling is that you have to use such exaggeration to try and make a point. Paul writes about going to Jerusalem and meeting with Peter immediately after his conversion. Of course he knew what Jesus said and did, why do you think he was so gung ho on persecution and killing Christians? Come on Bob use common sense and don't let your bias blind you.
Bottom line is the NT is the most attested ancient text. It's manuscripts agree more than any other ancient text. The religion for the vast majority of its existence on earth was one single Church. I'm sorry Bob but the facts just don't support you.
You probably don't want to go there. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| July 10th, 2020 at 11:33:44 AM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
Unless the universe is a totally different place than science is revealing, gods can only exist in peoples imaginations and in comic books.
But you're what they call an unreliable witness. You're the Ford dealer they call in to testify for Chevy. Every opinion you have is tainted in the extreme, it's impossible for you to see the other side objectively. Ehrman's classes are always booked years in advance at UNC, and it's mostly Xtian students that want him. What does that tell us.
Paul knew little about what Jesus said and did because it literally hadn't been made up yet. Paul wrote his letters 15-20 years after Jesus died, right at the start of the religion. He invented the religion, that's indisputable. If he didn't, who did. It certainly wasn't Jesus, he had no idea what was going on.
Meaningless. Like constantly saying Xtianity must be true because billions believe it is. That just affirms the gullibility of humans, nothing else. Billions have, throughout the ages, believed things that were totally false and even ridiculous. There are too many to list.
There's no place to go. Google Mary's role in scripture and you come up with her being mentioned less than 10 times, most of those having to do with the birth. She's just another urban legend who's fame grew around the campfires as the Jesus myth was being invented. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| July 10th, 2020 at 12:03:48 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Can you explain why you say this? Science says the universe is orderly and follows laws and rules. Why does that make God impossible?
Why was he such a rabid persecutor of Christianity then?
Why do you say Paul invented the religion? Jesus Himself established a Church through Peter and the Apostles. The religion is called Christianity, that comes from Christ. Jesus is the source and summit of all Christians believe.
So you are saying that billions of people believing something and all having shared common experiences of the Living Lord Jesus over 2,000 years is meaningless?!? Are you saying that the fact that the NT is the most well attested text by a loooong stretch is meaningless? What does that mean for all the other texts we know are true? Do you say they are worthless as well? Do you really think that so many people over such a long time can be wrong totally and have no real experience of the Divine through Jesus Christ? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| July 10th, 2020 at 12:55:53 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
Name one discovery that science has found that is supernatural in nature. Just one.
He never says. It was probably his job.
"Though Paul did not call this end result Christianity, he more than any other of the original apostles was responsible for the birthing of the new religion."
No more meaningless than billions having beliefs about anything and sharing common experiences. The earth was flat to most people for a very long time. They all agreed and shared that experience daily. They all agreed the sun went around the earth. So what. Doesn't make it true, has nothing to do with truth. Your problem is you can't tell the difference between belief and fact. You think some of them are exactly the same. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| July 10th, 2020 at 2:18:04 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Name one discovery that science has found that is philosophical. Name one discovery that science has found that explains the cause of civil war. Name one discovery that science has found that teaches us to love each other and respect each others rights. Just one. Or to put it another way; what you are asking is equivalent to asking me to name one dogma that religion has found that explains sub atomic particles. They are totally different fields of knowledge. If you think that science can discover the supernatural I am afraid you don't understand science or the supernatural.
Is that your best guess?
There is some debate actually about how many people ever really believed the earth was flat, people knew the Earth was round a very, very long time ago. However, regardless how many still believe it is flat? Not very many, the numbers went down not up. This is what happens in every single instance you can name when people believed something false. The other thing you should notice is how short of a time falsity has a hold of a human mind, it is short lived. False lies and unsubstainted claims do not last long, this is again a reality that you really need to come to grips with. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| July 10th, 2020 at 2:52:48 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
The supernatural doesn't exist, I don't think about it one way or the other. Randi will always keep his million dollars.
The Jews widely persecuted the Xtians in the first century. Paul was a Jew, why would he not persecute them is a better question.
Good grief, point missed. Just pick anything you like that people believe. Google 'things people believe that aren't true' and you'll get hundreds of examples. The POINT is just because lot of people believe something, it has no bearing on it's actual truth. I was at my father in laws memorial in church a few weeks ago. At one point the pastor says 'Roger is peering over the fence in heaven watching us, and he likes what he see's." I almost let out a guffaw, but saw many people nodding in seriousness. Then I remembered these people believe they're going to heaven with their current personality fully intact. I was reminded that all god religions have that in common. Fear of death is their main motivator, they talk about death all the time. They're obsessed with it. If you're not, it's tough to be around them much. Soooo depressing and non productive. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |