Hey FrGamble!

It is not my only argument, but it seems like yours is only some fantasy future one. Deal with reality and the impact that Christ has had on our world. Not just billions and billions of people, our years are based on His birth for goodness sake. Deal with reality and I think you will see that you are wrong.

Quote: FrGamble

Deal with reality and the impact that Christ has had on our world.

And Buddha and Mohammad had no
impact? Buddha has been around
longer than Jesus and impacts
millions every day. I'm not sure
what point you're making. We
should follow all 3 and the Greek
gods too, because they had an
impact on us?

Our years are based on his birth?
Five days of the week are named
after pagan gods, names that are
used worldwide. Four months of
the year are named after Roman
gods. What was ever named after
Jesus besides his b-day feast. How
are you dealing with that reality. These
gods were every bit as real to
people as your Jesus is, and believers
had very real relationships with
them. Every bit as real as yours
is with Jesus.

Quote: Evenbob

And Buddha and Mohammad had no
impact?

They also had and have a large impact and that speaks to something true. Muslims have a great reverence for Jesus and His mother and believe in His miracles. Buddha has a lot of philosophical wisdom that is helpful to millions and millions, but he of course would remind you that he is not God. Are you really asking what else is named after Jesus or what is connected to Him that is named? Just take a look at the major cities of the world. I know you are not saying the Christ did not have a larger impact than the long forgotten Roman gods or Buddha. You are correct there were many who truly believed in the pantheon of gods, just like you really believe there is no God. However, nobody believes in the pagan gods anymore and I think no more than a smattering of people really seriously believe there is no possibility of God. Truth will out.

Quote: FrGamble

nobody believes in the pagan gods anymore

They point to all this is, history
is replete with examples of
people thinking they had a one
on one relationships with gods
that they invented. Why did they
do this? Because all their friends
and neighbors were believers, how
could everybody be wrong.

It's EXACTLY to a tee what your
argument is. Your god is no more
provable than any of the Greek
and Roman gods, the S Pacific
gods, the god of Indians in S
America, you name it. They all
believed because everybody
else believed.

You will never see how weak your
argument is in this area. And I
know you rely heavily on it personally
because you've mentioned it countless
times in the last 6 years. To an atheist
there is not a whit of difference
between you and your communion
ceremony, and the sacrificing of a
sheep ceremony to a pagan god.
You're worshiping your imagination,
obviously. Gods are the human
scapegoat for explaining the myriad
of things we don't understand. And
they've finally outlived their usefulness,
as was inevitable.

The difference is one of magnitude, effect, numbers, and lasting reality in the present day. There has never been in history of humanity anything close to the impact Christ has had all around the world. You know this or your are just being willfully ignorant. I know it is uncomfortable for you and you are trying desperately to compare in your mind Christianity to the pagan or Polynesian gods, but you know you can't. There is nothing you can compare it to. I'm sorry Bob but your own attempt at an argument here has defeated you.

Quote: FrGamble

The difference is one of magnitude, effect, .

This argument is ridiculous!
My god is bigger and better
than yours because he has
a better press agent. Of COURSE
the present god is better known,
we live in the present and not
the past. We live in an era of
printing presses and newspapers
and modern advantages.

But make no mistake. The old gods
were very very big deals in their
day, far bigger than your god is
today. People ran their lives and
societies on what their gods wanted
from them. Your god is a pipsqueak
nobody by comparison. He's powerless,
where the old gods were powerful
indeed.

The study of these gods and their myths
turned devout Catholic Joe Campbell
into an agnostic, and later an atheist.
Your weak little god was beaten by
the old gods once again.

More than 2,000 years ago Jesus of Nazareth was crucified and His small group of mostly uneducated disciples were huddled together in a small room in fear. Then something happened that sent them out to spread the Good News of the Risen Lord Jesus without newspapers, media, or anything else. They were constantly persecuted and all but one, who was exiled to an island, gave their lives for the faith. Still today it is the largest religion on Earth, spans the globe, gave birth to civilization as we know it, created hospitals, universities, and God given human rights. It is still growing today. There is no comparison to any pagan religion even at their greatest height. You know this and refuse to admit it. Another example of your blindness and unwillingness to look at facts.

Quote: FrGamble

There is no comparison to any pagan religion even at their greatest height..

You still don't get the basic
point. The Greek and Roman
gods in their time were just
as real to the believers as
Jesus is to you. They had
personal relationships in their
heads with them, just like you
do with Jesus. You are no
different than they were. You
have your rituals and ceremonies,
you want to please your god just
like they wanted to please theirs.

There is not a single thing unique
about Xtianity. All of it, every
detail, was lifted from stories
and myths that had been around
for centuries. Virgin births, magic
'miracles', healing, rising from the
dead and going directly to heaven.
On and on, all borrowed from other
myths.

It's what turned Campbell into an
agnostic and later an atheist. The
total lack of creativity. The religion
is just a new package of very old
stories. Do know how many Xtians
know this? Not many. You act like
it's the greatest thing that ever
happened, when it's happened over
and over and over in stories
long before Jesus.

Just because the religion was able
to cash in on modern tech like
the printing press, means nothing
as far as it's credibility goes. Less
than nothing, actually. They were
in the right place in history, big
deal.

Quote: Evenbob

You still don't get the basic
point. The Greek and Roman
gods in their time were just
as real to the believers as
Jesus is to you.

Actually they weren't. They were not human and they were not incarnate. There was not real historical accounts of their lives. Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man. There were also many gods so they did not have the same relationship with them as I do with Jesus Christ. There also were fundamental differences between the interaction. I have a personal relationship with God who loved me first, I am responding to God's great love for me seen in creation and redemption. God doesn't need me, God loves me and I love God. The relationship with the pagan gods was very different. I think if you took a little time to think about these things before you write your posts you would recognize this as well.

Quote:

They had
personal relationships in their
heads with them, just like you
do with Jesus. You are no
different than they were.

Again you are wrong, see above.

Quote:

You
have your rituals and ceremonies,
you want to please your god just
like they wanted to please theirs.

"God you have no need of our praise and our thanksgiving can add nothing to your greatness." This is a line directly from the liturgy. Rituals and ceremonies are to adore God and honor God, but make no mistake about it - it is not to please God. God already loves us and nothing will change that or make His love for us greater. I kind of feel silly saying this because it is Christian Theology 101. I think you either know this already, feel it in your heart, or know you are wrong and just trying to be controversial.

Quote:

There is not a single thing unique
about Xtianity.

Oh boy, see above. First of all remember that Christianity has its roots in Judaism, which brought about the radical religious idea that God was one and the same God for all people. Secondly, the fact that God became man and lived among us. There are foreshadowing myths about the gods visiting for a time and of course these myths never speak of an incarnation. They are usually gods just appearing as men but never being fully man. I think you would be hard pressed to name anything in Christianity that isn't new compared to the pagan religions of old.

Quote:

You act like
it's the greatest thing that ever
happened, when it's happened over
and over and over in stories
long before Jesus.

It is the greatest thing that ever happened, because in this case it actually happened. We have the Church today to prove it. These other pagan myths and vaguely related stories never really happened, you know that right?

Quote:

They were
in the right place in history, big
deal.

Is that really what you think? A small group of poor people claiming a crucified man from humble beginnings has risen from the dead after preaching a totally new message. They began hated by the most powerful government in the world and by all the religious leaders, pagan and even Jewish. Is that the right place in history to become the largest and most influential religion the world has ever known?

By the way that new message I referenced was that God became man, that God loves us unconditionally, He paid the price for our sins so we could be free from shame, guilt, and fear. He taught a message that every human being no matter if they were men, women, Jews or Gentiles, slaves or free, young or old were precious in God's eyes and equal. That God desires us to be with Him forever in the perfect joys of Heaven and that He will always forgive us. That God suffers with us still today and draws close to us in our difficulties. He is no stranger to pain and suffering and even death. There has never been anything like this and their never will be again.

Quote: FrGamble

Bob I think the proof is in the pudding. Where are those who believe in the Greek and Roman gods today? What you cannot explain and what it looks like you don't like to think about is the astounding and continued growth and impact Christianity has had on the world. You like to just chalk it up to people being gullible or it is urban myth that grew. However you know deep down that these thoughts don't come close to explaining the reality. You know that there is no other example of these things happening throughout history. You know that calling billions of people simpletons, including some of the smartest men and women who have ever lived, doesn't make sense and makes you look silly.

Wait padre, so now it is a popularity contest? I guess Jesus had the best PR agent (the Vatican)

How about all the religions prior to Christianity that Christianity stole from (i.e. virgin birth, Greek God Dionysus, Saturnalia (Christmas), Eosturmonath (Easter), etc.)