Hey FrGamble!

Sure it would lead to laws created to punish such behavior, but you seemed to imply that it creates human rights.

Quote: FrGamble

Sure it would lead to laws created to punish such behavior, but you seemed to imply that it creates human rights.

We create the rights and make
them into laws. You can stumble
around in the woods all your
life, you won't discover a single
human right unless you create
one. They aren't hiding behind
a bush waiting for you to find
them, like you think you're god
is.

So you don't think human being have any rights without us creating them by laws? If you stumbled across someone in the woods and there were no laws you could just abuse him, enslave him, or kill him?

Quote: FrGamble

If you stumbled across someone in the woods and there were no laws you could just abuse him, enslave him, or kill him?

You just described human experience
for most of our existence. Morals and
laws were invented out of necessity,
not discovered because they were
there all along.

I continue to think it's wonderful that you agree that there is Original Sin, but I think that anyone who kills a stranger in the woods doesn't need anyone to invent a law to know what he did was wrong. Or are you saying it wasn't wrong if there was no law against it? Or are you saying it is not wrong until we invent the idea that killing an innocent person is bad? It doesn't sound like you quite know what you are saying.

Quote: FrGamble

So you don't think human being have any rights without us creating them by laws? If you stumbled across someone in the woods and there were no laws you could just abuse him, enslave him, or kill him?

No, because whatever state or country you are in would have laws governing

There is no longer any "no man's land" on Earth that doesn't have laws (even tribes rarely seen by non-natives have rules)

Quote: FrGamble

I continue to think it's wonderful that you agree that there is Original Sin

You surely aren't talking about me.
No god, how can there be a god
to sin against.

{q]Or are you saying it wasn't wrong if there was no law against it?[

Quote: Evenbob

Lets see. Kill your wife, bad. But OK
in some countries. Kill a man in a war,
that's fine. Kill a man in execution,
great. Kill a man in self defense,
perfectly fine. Kill a man who comes
on your property and eat him for
dinner was perfectly acceptable
in England for hundreds of years.

If the morality of killing is so blatantly
obvious, why does it need so many
qualifiers. Because it's not clear at
all till we invent the rules. The universe
doesn't care what we do.

The evil of killing an innocent person is blatantly obvious. You show this in the extreme cases you mention. Being hungry doesn't mean cannabalism is a good thing does it? Does inventing a law in some countries where it is okay to kill your wife make it a good thing? Of course not. Just laws reflect the deeper obvious human rights that we did not invent.

Quote: FrGamble

The evil of killing an innocent person is blatantly obvious.

But it doesn't say that, does it. It
says 'You shall not kill.' Period.
No attached caveats. There are
tons of non 'evil' ways to kill
someone that are totally
legitimate. You have no argument,
there are no innate human rights.
Only those we invent and define and
then continually redefine. God
has nothing to do with any of it,
obviously.

What are you referring to? I never mentioned the 10 Commandments nor any other religious texts. The 10 Commandments didn't invent or change anything. Do you think that when the people heard the 10 Commandments they were shocked? Do you think all the sudden they said, "Oh man, I didn't know it was wrong to lie or steal!" Or course not. They knew long before that it was wrong to kill an innocent person and as logical thinking people they also knew that the 5th Commandment did not mean you can't kill someone in self defense. In your effort to push a false view of human rights you are not thinking clearly or historically.