Hey FrGamble!

Quote: FrGamble

They knew long before that it was wrong to kill an innocent person .

You're obviously confusing evolved
instinct with with some kind of
divine intervention. All creatures
know instinctively not to kill their
own most of the time. Humans
know it too. It's counter productive
for keeping the species going. Yet
we find plenty of legit ways to do
it anyway. If your brain wasn't clouded
with all the scrubbing the Church
gave it, you could see this clearly.
Nobody is 'out there' dictating
any rules to us, that's impossible.

Quote: FrGamble

What are you referring to? I never mentioned the 10 Commandments nor any other religious texts. The 10 Commandments didn't invent or change anything. Do you think that when the people heard the 10 Commandments they were shocked? Do you think all the sudden they said, "Oh man, I didn't know it was wrong to lie or steal!" Or course not. They knew long before that it was wrong to kill an innocent person and as logical thinking people they also knew that the 5th Commandment did not mean you can't kill someone in self defense. In your effort to push a false view of human rights you are not thinking clearly or historically.

What about all the other commandments that seem to never be mentioned?

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Commandments-Mitzvot.htm

Quote: Evenbob

You're obviously confusing evolved
instinct with with some kind of
divine intervention. All creatures
know instinctively not to kill their
own most of the time. Humans
know it too. It's counter productive
for keeping the species going. Yet
we find plenty of legit ways to do
it anyway. If your brain wasn't clouded
with all the scrubbing the Church
gave it, you could see this clearly.
Nobody is 'out there' dictating
any rules to us, that's impossible.

All I am saying is that human rights were not invented by us or created by our laws as you seemed to earlier think. I'm happy with you claiming they are evolved instinct. Thanks.

Quote: FrGamble

All I am saying is that human rights were not invented by us or created by our laws as you seemed to earlier think. I'm happy with you claiming they are evolved instinct. Thanks.

I never said rights were evolved
instinct. I said the urge not to
kill our own species is. That
has nothing to do with rights.
Human rights were 100% invented
by us, you have zero evidence
they weren't. You hope they were
created by some god, so you
pretend they were. To be a god
believer, you have to do a whole
lot of pretending. It sounds
exhausting.

So we are back to you thinking that we invented through laws that there shouldn't be genocide but before that it was okay? Talk about exhausting.

Quote: FrGamble

there shouldn't be genocide but before that it was okay?.

Nothing is innately OK or not
OK. Nothing is innately right
or wrong. We decide those
things, not some outside force.
It's a copout to put that
responsibility on some outside
force. To blame a devil or a
god for your actions. Society
makes the laws and it's on us
to obey them.

So you are taking full responsibility for the innane idea that things like genocide are not innately evil? I'm sorry but I refuse to believe you actually think that. It was only the laws that made slavery bad, it was good before that? If we passed a law that said you had to believe in God then you would and would say it is a good thing?

Quote: FrGamble

So you are taking full responsibility

I take responsibility for what I
do, not what somebody else
does. Why would I do that,
it's ridiculous.

.

Quote:

It was only the laws that made slavery bad, it was good before that?

You seem to think our acts
have a life outside of us
doing them. They don't. You
want to label something
good or bad outside our
opinion of them. To give
them a life of their own
outside of us. That's very
dangerous thinking.

Quote:

If we passed a law that said you had to believe in God then you would and would say it is a good thing?

An interesting question considering
your Church punished atheists
severely in it's many Inquisitions, often
torturing and executing them. Why
would I think it's a good thing for
me just because it's a law. You obey
laws not because they are good or
bad but because it's what you agree
to do to live in that society.

Quote: Evenbob

You seem to think our acts
have a life outside of us
doing them. They don't. You
want to label something
good or bad outside our
opinion of them. To give
them a life of their own
outside of us. That's very
dangerous thinking.

Why is that dangerous? What I think is dangerous is you saying that only your opinion about if something is good or bad matters. Doesn't that lead to all kinds of problems if you think torture for certain people is okay or there is a law that says it is okay, does that mean it is good? That would appeal to tyrants and lead to the things we all agree are evil like the Holocaust. Is that okay with you?

Quote:

Why
would I think it's a good thing for
me just because it's a law. You obey
laws not because they are good or
bad but because it's what you agree
to do to live in that society.

Because aren't you saying that we invent what is good or bad? If atheism is made illegal why would you disagree? How would you claim that religious freedom or freedom from religion is a human right if it is just invented by us? I do not agree with laws that are unjust or support bad things even if I live in such a society. Laws don't make something good or bad by themselves, we don't invent or change the nature of something simply by changing the laws.

Quote: FrGamble

Why is that dangerous?

Because when you label everything
good or bad you set yourself up
as an authority and go about getting
people to agree with you. Like your
Church has done. They decide what's
proper behavior and you have squat
to say about it.

Quote:

we don't invent or change the nature of something simply by changing the laws.

Sure we do. We say killing another
human is bad, then we pass all kinds
of laws that make it OK. As I pointed
out we can legally kill people in a
myriad of ways and it's just fine
with everybody. What happened to
'killing is bad'? Now it's 'killing is bad,
unless..' We have juries to decide if
a killing was OK or not. This innate
built in morality you talk about is a
fantasy, we obviously make it up as
we go along.