Hey FrGamble!

Quote: Evenbob

Because when you label everything
good or bad you set yourself up
as an authority and go about getting
people to agree with you. Like your
Church has done. They decide what's
proper behavior and you have squat
to say about it.

Aren't you doing the same thing by saying your opinion about what is good or bad is the only one that counts? It is a question of authority, you see yourself and your own wishes and desires as the highest authority and that is very, very dangerous. I am saying that we need an authority that is not based on personal opinions or feelings but on something outside of ourselves that cannot be changed based on personal preference or the will of terrorist or tyrant. Do you worry that the natural human right that we shouldn't torture or rape someone is not able to be changed even if you or the people in power wanted it to be changed?

Quote:

Sure we do. We say killing another
human is bad, then we pass all kinds
of laws that make it OK. As I pointed
out we can legally kill people in a
myriad of ways and it's just fine
with everybody. What happened to
'killing is bad'? Now it's 'killing is bad,
unless..' We have juries to decide if
a killing was OK or not. This innate
built in morality you talk about is a
fantasy, we obviously make it up as
we go along.

No we don't and you admit it. No jury or human person can rightly say "Killing is not bad." In every case you mention they have to say exactly as you put it, "Killing is bad, unless..." Notice the killing part in not ever in doubt it is innate and true whether you like it or not.

Quote: FrGamble

Aren't you doing the same thing by saying your opinion about what is good or bad is the only one that counts?

FOR ME! I don't go out and
try and convince everyone
else to see it my way like
your Church does. For a
long time they even forced
people to convert to their
way of thinking. Dangerous
doesn't even cover it. We all
decide what's good or bad,
nobody blindly goes along
with somebody elses agenda
unless they're a moron.

Quote:

Killing is bad, unless..." Notice the killing part in not ever in doubt

You have to complete the sentence.
Killing is bad unless we decide it
isn't. Which happens all the time.
People get medals and awards for
killing.

Quote: Evenbob

FOR ME!

We all
decide what's good or bad,
nobody blindly goes along
with somebody elses agenda
unless they're a moron.

You even sound like a tyrant. If it is all about you and individuals deciding what is good or bad for them then how do you criticize a Christian who has decided that it is good to forcibly convert someone? Your approach has to accept that decision as his truth and that for him it is a good thing and who am I to tell him he is wrong. Dangerous doesn't even begin to cover it. In criticizing anything you are really just undercutting your own moral philosophy.

Quote:

You have to complete the sentence.
Killing is bad unless we decide it
isn't. Which happens all the time.
People get medals and awards for
killing.

You don't have to change anything. Killing an innocent person is in every situation a bad thing. Nothing can change that no matter how hard you try. When someone dies because of self-defense or war we even change the words we use to emphasize this is not murder. People try to change the words of all sorts of things to avoid the innate evil of certain acts. Think of the euphemisms used for the Holocaust. Can we at least agree that something like genocide has always been and forever will be evil?

Quote: FrGamble

You even sound like a tyrant. If it is all about you and individuals deciding what is good or bad for them then how do you criticize a Christian who has decided that it is good to forcibly convert someone? Your approach has to accept that decision as his truth and that for him it is a good thing and who am I to tell him he is wrong. Dangerous doesn't even begin to cover it. In criticizing anything you are really just undercutting your own moral philosophy.





You don't have to change anything. Killing an innocent person is in every situation a bad thing. Nothing can change that no matter how hard you try. When someone dies because of self-defense or war we even change the words we use to emphasize this is not murder. People try to change the words of all sorts of things to avoid the innate evil of certain acts. Think of the euphemisms used for the Holocaust. Can we at least agree that something like genocide has always been and forever will be evil?

Are any of us innocent? I thought we were all born with sin and cannot even escape it as even thinking a sinful thought is just as bad as committing the sin itself, right?

Quote: FrGamble

If it is all about you and individuals deciding what is good or bad for them

I don't decide for them, they
decide for them. If I don't
like what they decide, we
have a problem. The key
to living together as a
society is to be tolerant of
other peoples stupid
decisions as long as they
don't overly affect you.

Quote:

Killing an innocent person is in every situation a bad thing.

Nope. Ever hear of collateral damage?
The purposeful killing of innocent
people to achieve a greater goal.
There is a caveat to every kind of
killing you can name. You literally
have to go on a case by case basis
to decide if a killing was justified
or not. Just saying killing is bad
is meaningless without the details.

Quote:

Can we at least agree that something like genocide has always been and forever will be evil?

Which genocide. The one where a group
of diseased people were killed to protect
the rest of the population? At the time
it seemed to be the right decision to
save everyone else. There was no
medicine to treat the disease, no
vaccinations.

Everything has to
be looked at case by case, that's
why juries were invented. Much as
you'd like to believe the universe is
oozing with god made morality,
reality shows us something different.

Quote: aceofspades

Are any of us innocent? I thought we were all born with sin and cannot even escape it as even thinking a sinful thought is just as bad as committing the sin itself, right?

Thinking something sinful is not actually commiting a sin but it leads to it.

Quote: FrGamble

Thinking something sinful is not actually commiting a sin but it leads to it.

That's one of the main reasons my
friend left the priesthood. He got
tired of the ridiculousness of the
confessional. He got tired of hearing
peoples 'thought crimes' and felt
it was none of his business. A thought
is not an action nor does it lead to
action most of the time.

Quote: FrGamble

Thinking something sinful is not actually commiting a sin but it leads to it.

But...

Quote: Matthew 5:28

But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Quote: aceofspades

But...

Quote: Matthew 5:28

But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

If that's a sin I'm going straight
to hell. I do it every day of my
life. Did it today at least 10
times and the day isn't over
yet. Half the fun of being a
man is lusting after beautiful
women. lol

Quote: aceofspades

But...

Quote: Matthew 5:28

But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

The old saying is without consent of your will there is no sin. So bad thoughts that come into our mind for whatever reason and are not fantasized about or entertained is not at all a problem. It's amazing to me that Bob knew a priest who didn't know this and didn't seem to know how to teach his parishioners about this distinction. However, if you willfully lust after women and are gawking and dreaming about them all day this is sinful and can lead to serious sin.