Hey FrGamble!

Quote: FrGamble

There is nothing superstitious about these real miracles. We can explain it, it is through the love of God and the intercession of the saints. It is you who are dumbfounded in the face of such facts

If you meant to get a loud guffaw
out of me, it worked. You know very
well no facts at all are at work here,
it's your old buddy faith rearing it's
ugly head. Faith explains everything
if you just suspend every single bit
of your disbelief. Gobs of suspension
of disbelief is needed for the entire
Bible, in fact.

All I can ask is that you look into the miracle and study it. See all that the Church does to make sure that the facts are presented and properly interpreted. This is a case where the Church presupposes a natural explanation and must prove that none of these reasons adequately explain the reality of what happened.

Quote: FrGamble

All I can ask is that you look into the miracle and study it.

The guy got better. They had prayed to
Teresa. Obviously she healed him.

My cow has gone dry. Witches fly at
night and cast spells on cows to dry
them up. Obviously a witch did this,
find her and burn her.

This logic still makes sense to the Church.
God at his finest.

Quote: Evenbob

The guy got better. They had prayed to
Teresa. Obviously she healed him.

Far from obvious. There are lots of things that have to be ruled out and investigated before you can come to that conclusion. It is not that simple at all.

Quote: FrGamble

Far from obvious. There are lots of things that have to be ruled out and investigated before you can come to that conclusion. It is not that simple at all.

I feel like your pulling my leg, but I think
your serious. Are you saying when a doctor
can't find the immediate reason why something
happened, it's ruled a miracle?

Of course you're not, that would be ridiculous
and silly. Only a superstitious church would do
that. Just like they did with all the things they
didn't understand throughout the ages. Your
5 year old dies? Burn a witch. Your crop fails?
Burn a witch. Somebody is sick and prays to
a dead priest or nun and is healed? Make
them a saint.

It's all cut from the same cloth, it's all raw, pure,
superstitious nonsense.

Quote: FrGamble

This is a case where the Church presupposes a natural explanation and must prove that none of these reasons adequately explain the reality of what happened.

This is a case of bad premises.

Pretty much your premises can be reduced to "If we can't explain something, then God did it."

Then they were poorly explained. The premise is that if natural explanations have all been examined and determined to be not possible then we look to the supernatural explanations to determine if this is a true miracle of God or not. Just because we can't explain something naturally does not automatically mean that God did it. It could very well be a mystery, which is different than a miracle.

Quote: Evenbob

I feel like your pulling my leg, but I think
your serious. Are you saying when a doctor
can't find the immediate reason why something
happened, it's ruled a miracle?

Of course not, lots of research and examination have to be done. The miracle in question for Mother Teresa took place in 2008 I think. There has to be a lot of research and investigation to make sure there are no other explanations other than the direct intervention of God through the intercession of a saint.

Quote:

Somebody is sick and prays to
a dead priest or nun and is healed? Make
them a saint.

It's all cut from the same cloth, it's all raw, pure,
superstitious nonsense.

Not only is what you are saying superstitious nonsense it is also illogical and non-historical. You do know how few witches were ever really burned at the stake by the Church don't you? You almost sound like these atrocities were a daily occurrence. You are historical wrong about that. Anyway, you are also wrong that there is a lot more to it than simply having someone healed to make a saint.

Quote: FrGamble

The premise is that if natural explanations have all been examined and determined to be not possible then we look to the supernatural explanations to determine if this is a true miracle of God or not.

So you know everything there is to know about biology, genetics, the human body and environmental influences, not to mention how they all interact together in all possible ways and in all possible situations.

Well, I'm disappointed we've reached the full knowledge on this already. I was expecting further advances. I also wish someone had notified me of hits, but apparently it's a secret known only to the Catholic church.

How about this one:

Sinhue has his crops damaged by Menkhaure's sheep. So he prays to the goddess Bastet for relief and offers her two mummified cats at her sanctuary in Bubastis. Shortly thereafter Menkhaure falls ill. The great healer, Imhotep, cannot determine what is wrong, adn eventually Menkhaure dies. Sinhue buys his herds from his grieving widow and now his crops are secure.

A miracle, right? The greatest healer of the time could not explain Menkhaure's condition. Sinhue prayed and made a sacrifice to Bastet, and his problem with Menkhaure was soon solved. Oh, and this proves Bastet is real and very powerful, for she has made her loyal servant Sinhue a wealthy and prosperous man, and has smitten his enemy.

Ridiculous?

Certainly.

So are your claims of miracles by saints, only they're dressed in modern garb.

Quote: Nareed

Ridiculous? Certainly.
So are your claims of miracles by saints, only they're dressed in modern garb.

I still think he's not being serious. Nobody
could really think think this way in 2015.
Can the Church really be that backward
that they're still using superstition to draw
their conclusions?

It's a 'follow the money' situation, as usual.
Teresa was the biggest money magnet the
Church ever had, and the Vatican is desperate
for her sainthood so perhaps the money flowing
spigot can be turned on again. She brought in
hundreds of millions, but it was all squandered,
plus a lot more, when the Vatican had to pay
out 3 billion in hush money to the many victims
of priesthood child abuse. The Church is property
rich and cash poor now, they don't like being
in the position of selling assets to make ends
meet.