Hey FrGamble!

Quote: Dalex64

I think you missed what he said. He moved the goalposts by saying "inquisitions run by the Catholic Church" rather than just "the inquisitions"

He also asked about the Crusades. I'm
sure his church thinks nobody was killed,
it's just another rumor. lol

FrG's deafening silence on the Crusades
facts just shows he's lost when reality
hits him in the head. All he has is the
false Vatican claims that can't stand in
the light of the truth.

You know I was going to compliment you on a very nice and thoughtful post about the crusades, but then your true colors keep shining through with these other types of posts. Your deafening silence on the other issues I asked you to address also speaks volumes.

Quote: FrGamble

You know I was going to compliment you on a very nice and thoughtful post about the crusades, but then your true colors keep shining through with these other types of posts. Your deafening silence on the other issues I asked you to address also speaks volumes.

One issue at a time. The Crusades killed millions
in Jesus name. Correct?

Quote: Evenbob

One issue at a time. The Crusades killed millions
in Jesus name. Correct?

It depends what you mean by "in Jesus' name". If it means anything like the awful quote from Mark Pegg, which you selectively quoted from without quoting his many detractors, then no. If you mean that those who joined the Crusades did so to protect the holy sites of Jesus' life and defend the faith and that the dead from their own ranks, the other invading armies, and innocent civilians over the 200 years of the Crusades number in the millions, than yes.

Quote: FrGamble

If you mean that those who joined the Crusades did so to protect the holy sites of Jesus' life and defend the faith and that the dead from their own ranks, the other invading armies, and innocent civilians over the 200 years of the Crusades number in the millions, than yes.

And the mercenaries the Church hired to do
their dirty work, what about them. What about
all the Jews killed and the pagans, the extermination
of anybody who doesn't think like you do. All in
the name of Jesus.

"Pagans became increasingly portrayed as outside the law, without rights, and ultimately non-human because they lacked Christian faith. “Because Christians were prohibited from making contracts with infidels, it was also impossible to make truce or peace with them.” (Mastnak, 2002, p. 125). Because of this inability to make peace with Muslims directly, peace had to be made by their extermination. Killing Muslims was not homicide, but “malicide,” extermination of evil, a duty of the Church: 'To kill pagans exalts the name of God; to die in the military service of God is to go home to Christ.'

http://sites.dartmouth.edu/crusadememory/2016/04/24/the-militarization-of-the-church/

Quote: Evenbob

And the mercenaries the Church hired to do
their dirty work, what about them.

Most of the crusaders did so on their own expense for spiritual reasons. Many also had mixed in with spiritual reasons their pursuit for fame.

Quote:

What about
all the Jews killed and the pagans, the extermination
of anybody who doesn't think like you do.

This was not what the crusades were about, but sometimes what in became. Remember the crusades were called for as a response to a threat not some type of attack. It was not about getting other people to think like anyone.

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All in
the name of Jesus.

Again, what do you mean by this? Do you think people thought Jesus who said, "Love your enemies" was about killing people?

Quote:

"Pagans became increasingly portrayed as outside the law, without rights, and ultimately non-human because they lacked Christian faith.

You and this historian need to remember that there was no separation of Church and State at this point. It was not the Church that considered someone outside the law or without rights, it was the state. The Church was the one who often served as a check against the trampling on the rights of non-Christians who were in many ways considered non-citizens in certain places.

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“Because Christians were prohibited from making contracts with infidels, it was also impossible to make truce or peace with them.” (Mastnak, 2002, p. 125).

This is not true. Look at the history of some of the large trading cities in Christian Europe. Christians like everyone were involved heavily in trade and working with others who didn't share the same faith or language. There was never a prohibition of Christians not making contracts with other people from different faiths. Christians more than anyone wanted peace.

Quote:

Because of this inability to make peace with Muslims directly, peace had to be made by their extermination. Killing Muslims was not homicide, but “malicide,” extermination of evil, a duty of the Church: 'To kill pagans exalts the name of God; to die in the military service of God is to go home to Christ.'

With this the article goes too far and this is not true. It looks like a good article you linked to and I will read it, as I hope you do too. Here is a good quote from the summary of the article you would do well to read again:

Quote:

ALONG WITH THE IDEA FROM THE PEACE MOVEMENTS AND THE TRUCE OF GOD THAT SOME VIOLENCE IS UNACCEPTABLE, CAME THE COMPLEMENTARY IDEA THAT SOME OTHER VIOLENCE, THEN, MUST BE ACCEPTABLE. THE TRADITIONALLY NON-VIOLENT CHRISTIAN CHURCH BEGAN TO JUSTIFY FIGHTING IN THE NAME OF GOD AND FOR THE GOOD OF THE CHURCH, DESPITE NEW TESTAMENT DOCTRINE CLEARLY DISCOURAGING VIOLENCE.

It goes on to explain the clear but complex reasons why the First Crusade was called for and it had everything to do with the capture of Jerusalem by Muslims.

Quote: FrGamble

Do you think people thought Jesus who said, "Love your enemies" was about killing people?

The Church was turned into a killing
machine for whatever the reasons
were. The church of Jesus, the church
of your savior, went about killing
people and torturing for whatever
convoluted reason it had. You can
nitpik it apart to try and excuse this
fact, but that doesn't make it go away.

Your church is not run by a god, or
a holy 'ghost', or anything divine,
it's obviously (blatantly obvious)
run by run of the mill greedy selfish
men. That's my whole point in this
discussion. You only think it's
different and better somehow,
because you so desperately want
it to be.

Quote: Evenbob

The Church was turned into a killing
machine for whatever the reasons
were.

This is not true. I know I say that a lot to you, but look at the kingdoms and countries around the time you are speaking and ask yourself what is a killing machine. You point out the Catholic Church and look past all the other atrocities of that time. Atrocities we can now see clearly with our pristine 20/20 hindsight. You also don't seem to notice the calming and protective role the Church had in these violent times. The article you linked to talks about the Just War Theory and many other restrictions and circumstances needed to justify violence. The state had none of those restrictions and didn't necessarily like the Church making them try to follow them. They sometimes outright ignored the Church, but more often were forced to moderate their blood thirst because of the clear teaching of Jesus Christ.

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You can
nitpik it apart to try and excuse this
fact, but that doesn't make it go away.

This is where you continually fail. Nitpiking and examining historical evidence is not to make something go away, but to try to understand it. You should be more critical yourself so that you can really understand these complex and convoluted times better. You seem to not pay attention to details or history so you can make what you want or what you think be true, but it doesn't work that way.

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Your church is not run by a god, or
a holy 'ghost',

You are right it is run by flawed and imperfect human beings.

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run by run of the mill greedy selfish
men.

Sometimes that is true, other times it is run and guided by the greatest men and women ever to have lived.

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That's my whole point in this
discussion. You only think it's
different and better somehow,
because you so desperately want
it to be.

It is you who desperately want it not to be at all. I am just pointing out to you that it is obvious (blatantly obvious) that any organization that has lasted longer than any current state or government or human institution on Earth is different. It has undoubtedly made the world a better in countless ways from art & architecture, science, philosophy, theology, and social justice. You can try to nitpik it apart and excuse this fact, but that doesn't make it go away.

Quote: FrGamble

it is run by flawed and imperfect human beings.

Majorly flawed and screwed up at times.
It's absolutely no different than any other
org run by humans. Yet they continually
claim to have the moral high ground, which
they no way have earned or deserve.

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Sometimes that is true, other times it is run and guided by the greatest men and women ever to have lived.

Hey, even a stopped clock tells the
correct time twice a day. You get
lucky sometimes, probability says
you have to.

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It is you who desperately want it not to be at all. .

I just want it to quit strutting around like
it's in charge of goodness and morality,
all puffed up with ego and self importance.

The Church is like an interviewee looking for
a new job. It presents it's resume, which
lists all the good and bad things it's done.
What's this, you burned witches at the stake,
tortured and killed Jews in Inquisitions, and
allowed pedophilia to run rampant among
the priesthood while sweeping it all under
the rug? But you also ran schools and
orphanages and helped the poor? No thanks,
we're looking for people who understand
morality a little better.

You wouldn't hire an ex con who had a record
like that, why does the Church escape the same
verdict. It doesn't.