Hey FrGamble!

Quote: Evenbob

Did you know that Aristotle didn't believe the
universe was 'created' by some god, but that
it's been here forever? Wow, where I have I
heard that before. I wonder how the Church
'reconciled' that little tidbit of information.

St. Thomas Aquinas assumed "the philosopher" was right about this eternal universe so he came up with the proofs based on the unmoved mover and first cause. It was harder to prove God's existence in a world before modern science showed that the universe has a beginning, but it was still possible. After all Aristotle believed in God.

Quote: FrGamble

It was harder to prove God's existence in a world before modern science .

Please, lets not go down that road again, I beg you.
You must recall we discussed it to death. Science
can't prove there is a god, and because it can't
prove a negative, can't prove there isn't one.

I'll wait for proof, thank you. lol

Quote: FrGamble

Reality and realistic modern science and physics is not built on ancient ideas of an eternal, cyclical, pantheistic, animistic world. Think about it for a second and what that would mean for the discovery of the expanding universe and what we now know about time and relativity. The idea of an eternal world is an old one that was pre-scientific.

Science should have been allowed to stand or fall based on its own merits, rather than having reality dictated to it by religious beliefs and opinions.

I don't have a bunch of handy adjectives to describe the beliefs dictated by religion that they had to discard before moving forward again, and science is still fighting it today.

Quote: FrGamble

St. Thomas Aquinas assumed "the philosopher" was right about this eternal universe so he came up with the proofs based on the unmoved mover and first cause. It was harder to prove God's existence in a world before modern science showed that the universe has a beginning, but it was still possible. After all Aristotle believed in God.

What was god doing before the creation of the universe, how long was he doing that, and where was he doing it?

Quote: Dalex64

Science should have been allowed to stand or fall based on its own merits, rather than having reality dictated to it by religious beliefs and opinions.

Reality dictates to everyone the same it does not depend on religious beliefs. It is reality and truth that we learned which put an end to the an eternal cyclical universe, not religion.

Quote: FrGamble

Reality dictates to everyone the same it does not depend on religious beliefs.

That is true but the religious have not always let that be so, and continue to try to dictate reality based on their beliefs rather than on observation and evidence.

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It is reality and truth that we learned which put an end to the an eternal cyclical universe, not religion.

You are focusing on one thing, and also selecting one possible explanation as the correct one based on your religious beliefs. There are many examples of religion suppressing science that they didn't agree with, and we have talked about many of them before.

First of all, the beginning of our universe does not imply or prove the beginning of all existence.

Second, the big bang theory is not the only theory, and also isn't proof, and isn't the only valid possible explanation. There are many alternative theories out there, including one involving something existing before our universe with a crunch and a bare-miss instead of a collapse into a singularity. The various eternal cyclical universe theories have not been disproven. Religion is still trying to select a theory that best fits with their beliefs and opinions is trying to get everyone else to believe it. Religion is telling people that this scientific theory or that one doesn't contradict our views so you can believe that one. Other theories that contradict our views are not to be believed.

Third, religion has been constantly used as a hammer against science where there are conflicts of belief, such as geocentrism, the origin of species, evolution, geology, etc. This, along with religion telling people which theories are acceptable to believe, are the things that have been holding back science.

Quote: Dalex64

First of all, the beginning of our universe does not imply or prove the beginning of all existence.

This is something FrG can't wrap his
mind around. Any time a Christian
discusses this subject there is always
a tinge of desperation about it in their
argument. The universe must have a
start, because god created it and we're
so desperate for it to be true. Our faith
is shallow and in doubt every minute
that we exist without scientific proof to
back us up.

Which is as it should be, when you're
working with nothing but fairy tales and
urban legends.

Quote: Dalex64

That is true but the religious have not always let that be so, and continue to try to dictate reality based on their beliefs rather than on observation and evidence.

It would be utterly foolish to try to dictate reality. Reality will always win and you look foolish trying to change reality.

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You are focusing on one thing, and also selecting one possible explanation as the correct one based on your religious beliefs. There are many examples of religion suppressing science that they didn't agree with, and we have talked about many of them before.

There is only one occasion that everyone knows about and that is the Galleio case. However, that is more a case of personalities, after all it was a Catholic cleric that first suggested heliocentrism.

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First of all, the beginning of our universe does not imply or prove the beginning of all existence.

It does if you understand the universe to mean all that exists.

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Second, the big bang theory is not the only theory, and also isn't proof, and isn't the only valid possible explanation. There are many alternative theories out there, including one involving something existing before our universe with a crunch and a bare-miss instead of a collapse into a singularity. The various eternal cyclical universe theories have not been disproven. Religion is still trying to select a theory that best fits with their beliefs and opinions is trying to get everyone else to believe it. Religion is telling people that this scientific theory or that one doesn't contradict our views so you can believe that one. Other theories that contradict our views are not to be believed.

For a huge chunk of time the prevailing thought was that the universe was eternal and it was harder to reconcile the views of religion to this idea, but not impossible. Now the prevailing thought is that the universe has a beginning. You will have to take it up with modern cosmologists but it is pretty much a settled point that the Big Bang Theory is correct and explains best the observations and data. The other stuff you mention still requires a cause for the existence and expansion and contraction of the universe. As for your idea about disproving something that is not science's job. It observes, tests, and explains reality. It hasn't been disproven that the universe didn't come from a flying spaghetti monster but that doesn't mean we ignore the reality we can observe.

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Third, religion has been constantly used as a hammer against science where there are conflicts of belief, such as geocentrism, the origin of species, evolution, geology, etc. This, along with religion telling people which theories are acceptable to believe, are the things that have been holding back science.

This is crazy. Religion is not a hammer against science. Where do people get this idea? Surely not history. Science and religion are both seeking truth and they cannot legitimately differ. As has been seen throughout all of history any perceived differences amount to nothing more than misunderstandings or undiscovered truth. It is true that still today you have things like the Creation Museum for fundamentalists that are laughable, but just as laughable are scientists that think science disproves religion. The two go hand in hand.

Quote: Dalex64

What was god doing before the creation of the universe, how long was he doing that, and where was he doing it?

This is a good question that can help illustrate the need for a first cause, unmoved mover, and the definition of a non-contingent being. It is the same question that little kids will ask when you tell them God created the universe. They will sometimes ask, "well, who created God?"
This is to treat God or the cause of existence as created, which is an oxymoron and self-defeating. God is not created and unlike everything else that exists does not require anything for its existence. God is non-contingent. You, nor anything else that exists has the reason for its existence in itself, it is contingent on something else for its existence. This can't go on forever or the little kid who asks the question will be able to do so for infinity. For there to be anything there necessarily needs to be a foundation upon which everything exists, not part of creation, but outside of space, time, and matter. This is what atheists don't seem to grasp. They see the universe around them and just assume it has been here forever without every asking the question the little kid would ask, "Where did it come from?" The reason you can't say the universe is eternal and non-contingent is that it is obviously in time and material. These two things mean that it is dependent on something that came before it and doesn't have the reason for existence in itself. I hope this clears it up for you, Evenbob continues to miss this point and I don't think he has ever asked the good question you asked to help us get to the heart of the matter.

Quote: FrGamble

This is what atheists don't seem to grasp. They see the universe around them and just assume it has been here forever without every asking the question the little kid would ask, "Where did it come from?"

If something has been here forever,
the question of where it came from
would never arise. I love how you
build a house made of matchsticks,
with all your unproven theories and
conjectures, then proclaim them as
rock solid truth. All it takes is the
slightest breeze to blow them all
over and you're left with a universe
that's been here forever staring you
in the face.

You live in the world of connect the
dots, and when you run out, you make
up the dots as you go along and
convince yourself they're true. It's
a form of mental laziness and ego,
at having to be right at any cost. Even
to the point of killing people who don't
agree with you, which your Church has
a long history of.

You really love to over think everything, that's
got to be a problem for you. It's really not that
complicated. The universe has been here forever,
you and I will always be here forever. That should
give you great peace, instead it just irritates you.
That's OK, you have forever to figure it out.