Hey FrGamble!

Religion has a unique ability to empower fraud and abuse from its officials towards its adepts. This is so for all religions, including secular ones like Communism.

Quote: Nareed

Religion has a unique ability to empower fraud and abuse from its officials towards its adepts. .

Absolutely. This is what's so infuriating
about it. You just claim that you mean
well most of the time and if you're a
religion, you can get away with bloody
murder. Literally. It's getting harder
and harder, though. The Church got
away with it for so long because
they also wielded huge power over
every facet of society. Not anymore,
they are a pipsqueak of what they
once were. They're fake god has been
diminished mightily in power, which is
as it should be.

Quote: Evenbob

I just want it to quit strutting around like
it's in charge of goodness and morality,
all puffed up with ego and self importance.

I think you are projecting here. Many people don't like what the Gospel teaches about morality and they look for a way to ignore or write off what the Church teaches. You are not trying to attack the Church based on historical facts, that much is obvious. You are not after a fair rendition of history where the Church's many faults are exposed truly and accurately. In your own mind you want to discredit the Church so you can ignore its teachings. This is unfair because you are not being truthful about your motives and it is also illogical because even if the Church was the monster you say she is it does not mean that her teachings are wrong.

By the way this also means that your conscience is pricked by some issue the Church raises and offers as moral advice. Maybe it would be more productive if you attacked what you think the Church teaches rather than this false and illogical end-around you are trying to do. What teaching from the Church gets you so upset?

Quote: FrGamble

you want to discredit the Church so you can ignore its teachings.

No no no nooooo... I want to discredit the
Church because they're hypocrites. They
don't live by what they preach, as their
sordid history shows. But because it's
religion, they get a free pass. The most
recent hypocrisy is a perfect example.

Priests all over the world molesting kids
and taking advantage of their authority
over them, and the Church turns a blind
eye to it. Just move the criminal from
one post to another, never admit to
anything until the evidence is so
overwhelming it's burying them alive
and bankrupting them. Then it's time
to get out the top hat and cane and
start dancing like crazy around the
issue. Any other organization would
have been ruined forever, but because
it's a religion, they pretty much get away
with it.

But it was weakened by it, at least that's
something.

Quote: Evenbob

No no no nooooo... I want to discredit the
Church because they're hypocrites.

Do you want to discredit all the hypocrities, look in the mirror and you will find one. That is not meant to be an insult, but a statement of fact. None of us does all the time what we believe to be right.

Quote:

They
don't live by what they preach, as their
sordid history shows.

Our sordid history of humanity shows this and the Church has a better record than humanity, but it is still sordid. What you are overlooking is the vast majority of Catholics who do a very good job of living what they preach. Look at Pope Francis for example. I could give you a list of thousands of families who live what they preach.

Quote:

But because it's
religion, they get a free pass. The most
recent hypocrisy is a perfect example.

What free pass are you talking about?!? Maybe thinking people with a brain can realize that the sins of men does not mean that their religion is at fault? You seem to be making a huge impossible jump from the actions of a few bad people to condemn a whole religion. That doesn't make sense.

Quote:

Priests all over the world molesting kids
and taking advantage of their authority
over them, and the Church turns a blind
eye to it.

Not just the Church, but the whole world. Child sexual abuse was a hidden cancer throughout society that nobody talked about. It was considered a moral fault and no one connected the mental health piece to the people committing these heinous crimes. It wasn't so much a blind eye the Church turned to it as it was a ignorant eye and a selfish one - trying above all to protect the Church and not its most important members, the children.

Quote:

Then it's time
to get out the top hat and cane and
start dancing like crazy around the
issue.

If by dancing around the issue you mean admitting it and instituting real change. The process established now to work or volunteer in the Church in any capacity where you will be working with young people is extensive, thorough, and educative. It boggles my mind that every Catholic Church does this but not every public school system or other churches, synagogues, mosques, or every institution that works with kids. I would hope that because of our grave and public sin in the protection of youth we would lead the way to making sure these things don't happen anywhere especially in places that should be safe for kids.

Quote: FrGamble

Do you want to discredit all the hypocrities, look in the mirror and you will find one.

But I'm not a religion, I don't
claim to be the moral arbiter,
ever. Like the Church and it's
minions do.

moral arbiter; a person or group who gets to define the rules of morality.

Quote:

Our sordid history of humanity shows this and the Church has a better record than humanity

LOL, no it doesn't. It's right up there, atrocity
for atrocity. Your church is supposedly overseen
by a morally perfect god and his son, yet it's
obviously overseen by common greedy and
selfish men. The moral god and his son are
seen in word only, to make the greedy selfish
men look good.

Quote:

It wasn't so much a blind eye the Church turned to it as it was a ignorant eye and a selfish one - trying above all to protect the Church and not its most important members, the children.

What do you think turning a blind eye is.
That's exactly what the greedy selfish men
who ran the Church did, said to hell with
the abused, lets coddle and protect our
criminal priests at all costs, because we are
all sooooo important to the world. We
do sooooo much good who cares if a few
children's lives are ruined forever. It's so
easy to take the high ground now that
they've been found out, to say that we've
changed. But the change came about not
because the Church saw how wrong the
cover up was, how wrong protecting the
criminals was. It came after you got caught,
which means your attitude of contriteness
now is worthless and disingenuous.

Quote:

It boggles my mind that every Catholic Church does this

It's amazing what getting caught red
handed will do to internal policy. No,
it doesn't boggle the mind even the
tiniest amount. What would have boggled
the mind is, if the Church had taken these
measures of their own accord long long
before the problem was exposed to the
world. But the chances of that happening
were zero, the Church never (ever) would
have done anything proactive to stop it
as long as they thought they were getting
away with it.

They have the typical criminal mindset, only
change once forced by circumstances to
do so. Only admit guilt and show contrition
when there is no other choice. There's no
respect in that, only sociopathic survival
instinct.

Quote: Evenbob

But I'm not a religion,

Nor is the Pope or anyone else who claims to be part of any religion.

Quote:

I don't
claim to be the moral arbiter,
ever. Like the Church and it's
minions do.

Nor does the Pope. The morality the Church has consistently taught and inconsistently followed is not defined by anyone other than God. The Pope, nor anyone else in Catholicism is the moral arbiter as you seem to define it. Nobody can change it or alter the morality passed down from Jesus Christ and the Apostles themselves.

Quote:

Your church is supposedly overseen
by a morally perfect god and his son,

Why do you keep saying this when you know it is not true. You incorrectly think that the Holy Spirit is running the Church like a puppeteer.

Quote:

yet it's
obviously overseen by common greedy and
selfish men.

Yes, at times it is painfully obvious.

Quote:

The moral god and his son are
seen in word only, to make the greedy selfish
men look good.

Actually the Moral God and His Son and the Holy Spirit are seen in Word to make the greedy, selfish men look evil. That is why none of these evil men last long and why the Church in every instance rights itself with the help of saints and holy men and women to follow more closely the true Word of God.

Do you think the Gospels make greedy men look good?

Quote:

That's exactly what the greedy selfish men
who ran the Church did, said to hell with
the abused, lets coddle and protect our
criminal priests at all costs, because we are
all sooooo important to the world. We
do sooooo much good who cares if a few
children's lives are ruined forever.

You jump the shark so much it is comical. Do you really think some bishop didn't care if even one child was hurt? Do you think they said to hell with the abused? Do you think they ignored the words of Christ who said it would be better for someone to have a millstone tied around their neck and thrown into the sea than to hurt one of the little and innocent ones? Your poisoned mind dreams up these outrageous scenarios and you convince yourself that it is true.

Quote:

No,
it doesn't boggle the mind even the
tiniest amount. What would have boggled
the mind is, if the Church had taken these
measures of their own accord long long
before the problem was exposed to the
world.

What I said is that it boggles the mind that everyone is not doing what the Catholic Church did in protecting youth. These guidelines and rules were very proactive and more than anyone would ever require. I continue to pray that our school systems and other groups will follow suit.

Quote: FrGamble

Nor does the Pope. The morality the Church has consistently taught and inconsistently followed is not defined by anyone other than God. .

This is the crux of it. There is no god
so you make it up as you go along,
then blame it on the non existent
god. You have more excuses for
what your church did and does, it
must get awfully tiring being a
professional apologist. You must
weary of having to defend the
indefensible, of continually having
to try and polish the forever tarnished
morally bankrupt institution you
represent.

Quote: Evenbob

This is the crux of it. There is no god

This is the crux of it. God exists and so do eternal and universal truths. Not you, not the Pope, nor anyone can change the fact that some of the things you do, and some of the things so called "men of God" do are evil. You want to try to wipe away an institution that reminds you of how you should live and the only thing you keep harping on is your twisted and confused version of history in a vain attempt to pretend your conscience is pricked by something. Why don't you just admit it and speak about the thing that is causing you such angst in your life instead of going around in circles.

Quote: FrGamble

You want to try to wipe away an institution

Nope, I just want people to see it
for what it really is. A farce run by
greedy men to advance their
agendas. To keep them in power
and continue having power over
people. To keep people from thinking
for themselves and advancing
civilization, by feeding them lies
and false promises based on nothing
but fantasy and urban legend.