Hey FrGamble!

Quote: petroglyph

Morality is subjective.

Clearly it is not! Morality is objective. To say morality is subjective is to say that there are certain circumstances or personal reasons that I can make up my own definition of right and wrong. This is the beginning of tyranny or the collapse of society. If you really believed morality was subjective how could we enforce laws or establish rules. How could you condemn or hold responsible anyone for their actions?

Quote: FrGamble

Clearly it is not! Morality is objective.

"Morality is a man-made concept that is defined by the society you live in; it is subjective. There is nothing called morality in nature. You cannot observe morality or test it in a laboratory. There is no absolute "morality."
Many religions have tried to prove that morality is an absolute, just like God is real. They have even developed philosophies to prove it, e.G., metaphysics, and epistemology, which use meaningless circular propositions to prove their points."

Quote: Fleastiff

Clearly.

Clearly not! See above.

Quote:

However there is a difference between what the ancients knew and what they were permitted to say. Church dogma was the world was flat and authorities did not want to be challenged, so sailors who first saw a ships mast and then the ship itself due to the curvature of the earth kept quiet if they wanted to go to sea again rather than go to a dungeon.

This is just silly. Church dogma was NOT that the world was flat. Where do you guys get this stuff. You are swinging a falsehoods and myths that you have somehow believed.

Quote:

No matter how often EvenBob and FrGamble to at it they will not be able to reach a common ground because the church is built on matters of faith and infallibility of priests and infallibility of the ancient works whereas in EvenBob's world everything must be rational and proven and never merely accepted.

I can't believe you would say such things about Evenbob. Nothing he says is rational or proven. He believes in reincarnation, an eternal universe, and is an atheist! Nothing could be further away for rational or proven. When pressed on this he has said it is because it just feels right or it is what he observes. That is not a rational argument and doesn't even attempt to prove anything. I have never said anything remotely close to believe in God because I said so or because these ancient writings said so! I've talked about the accumulation of evidence leading not to proof, something we don't have for the important things in life, but rather to a reasonable faith based on science, logic, philosophy, history, testimony, and personal experience. Make no mistake about it the Church is NOT built on blind faith or an appeal to infallibility.

Quote: Evenbob

"Morality is a man-made concept that is defined by the society you live in; it is subjective. There is nothing called morality in nature. You cannot observe morality or test it in a laboratory. There is no absolute "morality."
Many religions have tried to prove that morality is an absolute, just like God is real. They have even developed philosophies to prove it, e.G., metaphysics, and epistemology, which use meaningless circular propositions to prove their points."

In what society is genocide subjectively a good thing? There is morality in nature, it is what guides human beings who are not animals that simply follow instincts but have free will and rational thought. You are scared of objective morality, even though it obviously exists, because it must be grounded in something deeper than simply us and our own whims and laws.

Give me an example of how for example rape can go from something objectively evil to something subjectively good.

Quote: FrGamble

There is morality in nature,.

Prove it. You cannot.

Quote: Evenbob

Prove it. You cannot.

Human Beings are where you find morality in nature.

Quote: FrGamble

Human Beings are where you find morality in nature.

But you say it exists all by
itself in the universe. Where,
outside the imagination of
people, is it. Nowhere to
be found.

Quote: FrGamble

Clearly it is not! Morality is objective. To say morality is subjective is to say that there are certain circumstances or personal reasons

Ever hear the term lifeboat ethics?

Quote: Evenbob

But you say it exists all by
itself in the universe. Where,
outside the imagination of
people, is it. Nowhere to
be found.

It exists in Human Beings so I would say it exists in the universe. Why do you say it is nowhere to be found when we as people strive to live by objective moral standards?

Quote: Fleastiff

Ever hear the term lifeboat ethics?

No, but it sounds scary.