Hey FrGamble!

Quote: FrGamble

It exists in Human Beings so I would say it exists in the universe.

So by your logic Santa and unicorns
exist in the universe because we
thought them up? We thought up
morals, didn't we?

Are you sure this is the story you want
to go with?

So you think morality is the same as Santa and unicorns? Are you sure that is the story you want to go with.

Take a look at your last post in the thread about the news concerning the finding of the young soccer team. You mention you are grateful that humans have morals. Do you think we just make it up and no more important or binding than our imagination?

Quote: FrGamble

So you think morality is the same as Santa and unicorns?

Absolutely. They are made up and
serve a purpose, and do not exist
outside our imaginations, just like
morals.

Quote:

You mention you are grateful that humans have morals.

Of course. I'm grateful for lots of
things we make up. Traffic lights,
stop signs, clocks to tell time,
rulers to measure things. We are
surrounded by stuff that has no
use outside of our imagination.
A traffic light is meaningless without
the rules we made up to go along
with it. A red light doesn't stop
our car form going thru the intersection,
the rule we made up does.

There is no morality in nature outside
of our heads. Same with god.

Quote: Evenbob

Absolutely. They are made up and
serve a purpose, and do not exist
outside our imaginations, just like
morals.

So what if someone makes up a morality that says it is okay to kill people?

Quote:

There is no morality in nature outside
of our heads. Same with god.

First of all is what is in our heads just made up and not real? Secondly, are you free to make up any morality you want?

Quote: FrGamble

So what if someone makes up a morality that says it is okay to kill people?

What do you think serial killers
do. Luckily the rest of society
has different morals than serial
killers.

Quote:

are you free to make up any morality you want?

People do it every day. Go
to a prison and listen to
the screwy justifications
people have for crimes
they committed. Many feel
right to their bones that if
you own more than them,
it's morally OK to steal from
you. And you'll never talk
them out of it.

Quote: FrGamble

Clearly it is not! Morality is objective. To say morality is subjective is to say that there are certain circumstances or personal reasons that I can make up my own definition of right and wrong.

You do. Your church does, all...the...time.

Is burning witches moral or immoral?

How about transferring and protecting pedophiles? Moral or immoral?

Quote:

If you really believed morality was subjective how could we enforce laws or establish rules. How could you condemn or hold responsible anyone for their actions?

Laws originated out of respect for personal property, because of the penalty for trying to steal the lions food. Fear is a great motivator, that is why the church invented so many sins, to capitalize on fear.

The church learned to use every survival instinct we have acquired over the millennia against us , for fun and profit.

Quote: petroglyph

The church learned to use every survival instinct we have acquired over the millennia against us , for fun and profit.

Very good, wish I would have
said that.

Quote: FrGamble

Human Beings are where you find morality in nature.

Humans are where you find rules, so the poor don't eat the rich.

Quote: FrGamble

So what if someone makes up a morality that says it is okay to kill people?

And yet so many religions invest their wealth in defense industry's.

How many xtians have lockhead in their IRA's?

Quote: petroglyph

Is burning witches moral or immoral?

How about transferring and protecting pedophiles? Moral or immoral?

Both are very immoral and that is the case regardless of who does it or when, it is objectively wrong. But if you were Evenbob you would only say this is your made up imagination and no more important that talking about Santa. Do you believe this? What if I said those things you mentioned were personally moral and good to me? What ground would you have to stand on subjectively to say I was wrong? In fact why are you even using the terms moral or immoral if you don't think there is any standard on which to objectively judge these things?

Quote:

Laws originated out of respect for personal property, because of the penalty for trying to steal the lions food. Fear is a great motivator, that is why the church invented so many sins, to capitalize on fear.

Invented sins? Did people know it was wrong to murder or steal before the 10 commandments or were they invented by Moses?

Quote:

The church learned to use every survival instinct we have acquired over the millennia against us , for fun and profit.

It is a good line, but can you give a single example of this?