Hey FrGamble!

Quote: Mosca

None of it makes any sense. I knew that when I was ten years old.

All I keep hearing is, this doesn't make sense or it is confusing. I really wish you all might tell me why you say such things? I get that this can be confusing or complicated. However nobody has explained why it doesn't make sense or isn't logical.

I also understand that it might be hard to see your objections, but no body has said any that are valid. Bob has mentioned that he thought Jesus because He knew He was divine shared completely in the knowledge of God. I think he has understood now that Jesus in His humanity was not omniscient because being fully human our intellect is limited. Nobody has mentioned the example of Abraham in Genesis 22 or answered my question about if I became a martyr having complete faith I would go to Heaven, does that mean I never sacrificed anything? You can't just say something is ridiculous because you don't like the answer. For example when I pointed out the ridiculousness of atheism nobody had any response, just more mean comments followed by a change in subject. Let's honestly think about these things if you really want to know about them. If you have already made up your minds and resort to childish thinking of a 10 year old then be honest about it.

Quote: FrGamble

All I keep hearing is, this doesn't make sense or it is confusing.

It's very confusing. You and your
Church both say Jesus was 'fully
aware' of his divinity before he
was baptized. Then you say in
the same breath that he knew
nothing of what god knew, he
was just a man like every other
man.

So I ask again. What did being
fully aware that he was god
(divine) mean to him if it gave
him no knowledge beyond
that of an average human. The
way you explain it, there is no
sense to it.

Here's an example. It's 1920 and
you're born into the Rockefeller
family. You know this all your
life and what it means. But in
your childhood you're treated
like an average middle class
kid, no huge benefits from the
family fortune till you turn 21.
But you know it's coming, so
you're fine with it. You're fully
aware of what and who you are.

So what did it mean to Jesus that
he was fully aware he was also
divine, god. I also understand
you can't answer this because
whatever you say it blows the
whole premise behind your
religion out of the water.

If Jesus knew he was god, and
your Church says he did, there
could be no sacrifice. This is
one of those myths that's not
supposed to make any sense,
there are lots of them. You're
supposed to take all of this
as myth and not actual events.
Your religion has missed the
point entirely.

If taken as myth, the story of
Jesus makes perfect sense. Like
the guy always rolling the
boulder up the hill, or the
guy who flew too close to the
sun. Those stories lose all their
meaning if taken as real events.

Xtianity loses all meaning if
taken literally. And makes perfect
sense if taken as a teaching myth.

It’s not confusing at all. Remember, I taught catechism classes.

It’s nonsensical. Anything can have internal logic; all you have to do is define the terms of the argument.

Skip to 1:30.



If you don’t want to click:

“This is not an occult science. This is not one of those crazy systems of divination and astrology. That stuff's hooey, and you've got to have a screw loose to go in for that sort of thing. Our beliefs are fairly commonplace and simple to understand. Humankind is simply materialized color operating on the 49th vibration. You would make that conclusion walking down the street or going to the store.”

Quote: Mosca

“This is not an occult science. This is not one of those crazy systems of divination and astrology. That stuff's hooey, and you've got to have a screw loose to go in for that sort of thing. Our beliefs are fairly commonplace and simple to understand. Humankind is simply materialized color operating on the 49th vibration. You would make that conclusion walking down the street or going to the store.”

Is that really what I sound like when you read my posts? I feel like I'm not talking about nonsensical things. Granted I realize that Jesus Christ is unique, stupendous, supernatural, and to think God became man is extraordinary to say the least. However, I feel like talking intelligently about a historical person who claimed to be God, was hailed as God, was crucified and risen is not nonsensical, it is amazing, yes. Striving to understand the person of Jesus Christ who was both fully God and fully man also doesn't seem nonsensical.

We know what it is to be fully man so we can use that as a pretty sensible thing to talk about. Our Scriptures make it clear that this Man, who was fully God, was different. The biggest difference was His unique relationship to God as His Father. He taught us to call God, "Abba", which means "daddy", so intimate was His relationship with God. He desired all of us to have that same closeness to God. He was able to know at times the thoughts of men and women around Him. He was able to preform miracles. However, Jesus in His humanity was not omniscient. Is that nonsensical? Again I think it is confusing because it is so extraordinary but I just want to be sure you are not saying it is nonsensical or comparing what I am saying to your quote above because you have simply made up your mind that you don't want to understand it, you don't want to believe it. Which is fine by the way, no one is forcing you to believe in anything. It just isn't fair when you claim it is gobblegook, at least not without more reason than a bully on a schoolyard.

I think I answered your question in my response to Mosca. So let me just point out a few things in your post:

Quote: Evenbob

Then you say in
the same breath that he knew
nothing of what god knew, he
was just a man like every other
man.

I never said this! Please stop saying things as if I said them when they are obviously you making stuff up. It is dishonest and meant to be insulting.

Quote:

Here's an example.

It is an interesting example. Jesus trusted in God and His plan. Jesus knew the prophecies in the Old Testament. Maybe the example would be of someone who claimed to be a Rockafeller but nobody believed him and the authorities and courts all said he wasn't, but he knew in his heart he was. He also knew in his heart that the old man Rockafeller was asking him to give away the entire fortune to everyone. Everyone thought that was ridiculous, but after being dragged through the courts, mocked, ridiculed, and imprisoned or committed somewhere it turns out he was the heir and gave away everything.

Quote:

I also understand
you can't answer this because
whatever you say it blows the
whole premise behind your
religion out of the water.

Why do you say this? It is like you have already made up your mind. Will you listen to anything I say? The answer concerning the divine and human natures of Christ is what the religion in many ways is about. What you don't understand and have incorrectly made assumptions about seems to be your problem with the religion. If you would actually get a better understanding of who Christ is and honestly learn about what the religion teaches you would not say such things. But you are scared it seems that all you have been holding unto is a false parody of Christianity and you desperately don't want to let that go.

Quote:

If Jesus knew he was god, and
your Church says he did, there
could be no sacrifice.

Simply not true.

Quote:

You're
supposed to take all of this
as myth and not actual events.
Your religion has missed the
point entirely.

I know that is what you want to believe and the historical reality of Jesus Christ and of Christianity is very frustrating to you.

Quote:

If taken as myth, the story of
Jesus makes perfect sense.

Why does it make sense as a myth, but not as a reality?

Quote:

Xtianity loses all meaning if
taken literally. And makes perfect
sense if taken as a teaching myth.

In my view Christianity loses all meaning if it is taken as a myth.

Quote: FrGamble

answered my question about if I became a martyr having complete faith I would go to Heaven, does that mean I never sacrificed anything?

Correct!!!! The insane person who jumps out of an airplane with no parachute on who believes they are 'going to a better place' after death is NOT sacrificing anything. Quite the opposite.... it is one of the most selfish acts a person can make. It causes pain to all the survivors who now feel they 'should have done something'. The ones who know there is no 'better place'.

Quote: SOOPOO

Correct!!!! The insane person who jumps out of an airplane with no parachute on who believes they are 'going to a better place' after death is NOT sacrificing anything. Quite the opposite.... it is one of the most selfish acts a person can make. It causes pain to all the survivors who now feel they 'should have done something'. The ones who know there is no 'better place'.

And if that person didn't take the parachute because there wasn't enough for everybody? If the martyr took the place of a condemned man in order for that man to be free?

Quote: FrGamble

And if that person didn't take the parachute because there wasn't enough for everybody? If the martyr took the place of a condemned man in order for that man to be free?

That is a totally DIFFERENT scenario from the one I presented. That person is not jumping to 'go to a better place'. That person is jumping to their death to save a different person. The jumper in your case IS making a sacrifice. Since in your mind (and presumably Jesus') he was going to that 'better place' he made no real sacrifice.

Quote: FrGamble

Is that really what I sound like when you read my posts? I feel like I'm not talking about nonsensical things. Granted I realize that Jesus Christ is unique, stupendous, supernatural, and to think God became man is extraordinary to say the least. However, I feel like talking intelligently about a historical person who claimed to be God, was hailed as God, was crucified and risen is not nonsensical, it is amazing, yes. Striving to understand the person of Jesus Christ who was both fully God and fully man also doesn't seem nonsensical.

We know what it is to be fully man so we can use that as a pretty sensible thing to talk about. Our Scriptures make it clear that this Man, who was fully God, was different. The biggest difference was His unique relationship to God as His Father. He taught us to call God, "Abba", which means "daddy", so intimate was His relationship with God. He desired all of us to have that same closeness to God. He was able to know at times the thoughts of men and women around Him. He was able to preform miracles. However, Jesus in His humanity was not omniscient. Is that nonsensical? Again I think it is confusing because it is so extraordinary but I just want to be sure you are not saying it is nonsensical or comparing what I am saying to your quote above because you have simply made up your mind that you don't want to understand it, you don't want to believe it. Which is fine by the way, no one is forcing you to believe in anything. It just isn't fair when you claim it is gobblegook, at least not without more reason than a bully on a schoolyard.

It’s nonsense to me. Gobbledygook, if you want me to use your word. And, that’s what Christianity sounds like to me. How can it be more true than Scientology? Or JCLDS?

I’m glad it works for many others. The world is a big place.

Quote: SOOPOO

That is a totally DIFFERENT scenario from the one I presented. That person is not jumping to 'go to a better place'. That person is jumping to their death to save a different person. The jumper in your case IS making a sacrifice. Since in your mind (and presumably Jesus') he was going to that 'better place' he made no real sacrifice.

I am saying that the man who forgos the parachute believes he is going to a better place. Jesus believes as well that doing God's Will to save the world means that death and sin will be defeated. Does having that belief make their sacrifice null and void?

[edit] Just to be clear the man who forgos the parachute and Jesus undergoing His passion and death are both done for others but they also believe they are going to a better place. Does that mean their doing it for others doesn't really count and that they didn't sacrifice anything?