Simple question?

Quote: beachbumbabs

I'm more in line with EB than FrG in this discussion, but yes, Jesus suffered greatly. He was human, with nerve endings, an ego, a personality that developed for 30 years before he began to preach. He lived poor and dirty, with the dregs of society, was humiliated, betrayed, disbelieved, mocked, spat on, flogged, stabbed, and crucified, which is a form of torture by any definition, (nails driven through hands and feet, left to asphyxiate slowly). Whether he was the Son of God, a delusional fool, or something in-between, is almost irrelevant to the question. His life as he knew it was over in a horrible sequence of events. He could have stopped it at any point by recanting; he did not. And it was that willingness to stand by his God unto death despite feeling forsaken by Him that saved us all (those who believe),

I'm quoting Babs again because I think she does a good job beginning to describe the suffering of Christ, which of course is only part of the sacrifice. In regards to Christ you have to remember you are also talking about God. He willingly chose to become one of us, to be born helpless. We don't have a choice about that. God does. He doesn't have to undergo or do any of this and yet He does. Imagine God knowing what it is like to stub His toe, be cold, go hungry or thirsty, to experience pain, know what it is like to be lied to, abandoned, hated, disappointed. While that is sinking in another thing to think about is the permanency of the Incarnation. The second person of the Most Holy Trinity did not just put on an Edgar suit and walk around a bit. That would not be fully human. The Word of God became man and after the Resurrection He continues to be man in a glorified body in Heaven. These are all things to consider whether or not He did or didn't have some beatific vision that eventually things would work out. God out of love for you and all of us willingly became man, taking the form of a slave Scripture says, to serve and not to be served. If you don't call that sacrifice I don't know what is?

Quote: beachbumbabs

It's my understanding that Christians, by definition, believe that Christ saved us from our sins, both those intentional and those an unavoidable product of living. (sidebar: which is part of the gig; even babies are sinners at birth) So as you've phrased it above, I think it misses the point of Christianity ("the punishment...eternal separation from god") in that, if you are Christian, you are forgiven your sins and will NOT suffer the punishment of a vengeful God. Sort of that the reward for taking that leap of faith is that your sins are gone, and it's endlessly renewed. That's how people can screw others over all week long and show up to church on Sunday and be thought Good and Clean. Rinse and repeat.

I think that we're trying to say the same thing in the end.

I always like it when BeachBumBabs contributes. Thanks so much.

Two quick things. First there is nothing vengeful about God, in fact as you describe earlier in your post it is God that is coming to save us from the inevitable consequences of our sins. God is merciful. God is saving us not from vengeance, but reality. Sin destroys, bad hurts, evil must be punished - these are moral laws of justice. You might as well call the law of gravity vengeful in holding us on Earth. Now God indeed set these laws up, but not to hurt us, but to protect and help us. Can you imagine a sick world where evil is commended and celebrated? So an correction I would suggest is to say that because of God's love you will NOT suffer the punishments deserved by the moral law of Divine justice.

This is important to address the second thing that concerned me. The "rinse and repeat" cycle of sinners being forgiven just so they can go out and sin some more. The first step of changing ones life is not focusing on the actions themselves that need to be changed, but rather the deeper question as to why do I screw others over all week long? Changing this behavior is necessarily going to have to address this question. The answer that Christ first gives is that you are loved and forgiven. That you are good and kind and that these sins are not you and you are better than them. It takes a while sometimes for this to sink in. Sometimes people use this as a get out of jail free card. They feel uplifted and loved and go out and sin some more. This is not going to stop God from loving them but the more they encounter the love of God and feel their self worth the harder and harder it becomes to not love others and see their dignity and self worth as well. Once people are convinced that they are loved unconditionally by God and that they are good, worthy, and wonderful they realize the reason they were screwing others was because they didn't feel that in themselves. The rinse and repeat cycle continues, because we all struggle with sin, however the screwing people over all week is ended once they really understand that they are indeed and truly Good and Clean.

Let's see, let me liken this to a SIMS game.

https://www.thesims.com/

You're pretty much the Creator. Early on, when I first read stories of people playing this game some people did evil things like let their SIMs go in a room then remove all the doors and windows. Or into the swimming pool and remove the ladder, in either case causing simulated misery by trapping them. (I guess)

So, suppose I could become the SIM Christ. Go down and live the life of a SIM and get crucified. I teach them the way to paradise, and punish them if they don't follow my rules.

An I like a great guy now? Seems a stretch. I have complete control over their well-being. I certainly wouldn't define it as hero like behavior on my part in the real world, because of my full control over everything. I'm just a bigshot who can do everything anyway. I'm all powerful and none of the SIMS can do anything about it anyway.

So, that's how I look at it. I'm no great thing because I set it up to work that way, IMO.

Quote: FrGamble

God out of love for you and all of us willingly became man, taking the form of a slave Scripture says, to serve and not to be served.

So god, the lord of the manor, put
on some of his workers clothes and
lowered himself to their level for
awhile. And for this were supposed
to drop to our knees and praise him?

Really? This is the story you're going
with? It's one of the lamest things
I've ever heard. This is what your
religion is based on? Where is the
sacrifice. The Marine who lost his legs
in Iraq for his country blows god out
of the water for sacrifice. You're
saying god was inconvenienced for
awhile, but no harm done, and for this
we owe him everything?

I don't have it wrong because this is what
I'm finding on other sites that try and
explain this. It's no wonder Christians don't
want to discuss it, they have no idea where
the sacrifice was. They just trust Pastor Bob
and Father Bill, and don't worry about it.

Good grief.

No, did you read what I said earlier? This is not a human suit, this is not a vacation, this is a permanent decision for the Word of God to become incarnate. We are not talking either about some lord of the manor, we are talking about the Lord, which is the word used to replace the unpronounceable name of God. We are talking about the all-powerful creator of the universe becoming one of us, to serve us, to show us the way, to love us, and to pay the price for our sins in order so that we may share in the divine and perfect life of God for which we were created. Yes, fall on your knees to praise Him!

Quote: rxwine

So, suppose I could become the SIM Christ. Go down and live the life of a SIM and get crucified. I teach them the way to paradise, and punish them if they don't follow my rules.

Um..the whole reason you would come is so they would not be eternally punished for breaking moral laws. These rules you speak of are set up so that life is possible and good. The rules would be that you should not cause misery to others. Of course you do have to give free will to your creation and hope that they respond to your love and example. You couldn't just create robots that do everything you want or say they have to do, at least if you really wanted to be a relationship of love with them.

Quote: Evenbob

The Marine who lost his legs
in Iraq for his country blows god out
of the water for sacrifice. You're
saying god was inconvenienced for
awhile, but no harm done, and for this
we owe him everything?

God was not inconvenienced for some time. God became one of us and sacrificed everything for us so that the sacrifice of the Marine who loses everything in serving others may experience the joy of eternal life. I don't see how that Marine who rightly inspires you for heroically doing his duty does not also lead you to see that the God freely and completely gives up everything to become one of us and sacrifices His life so that that Marine and all of us can live forever. For this you do own Him everything!

Quote: FrGamble

God freely and completely gives up everything to become one of us and sacrifices His life so that that Marine and all of us can live forever. For this you do own Him everything!

This is unbelievable, but you have no
idea what the concept of sacrifice means,
do you. God gave up NOTHING, that much
is obvious to even the casual reader. But
you're so far into this charade that you're
in all the way. You want it to be true so badly,
you need for it to be true so badly, that you
ignore facts, common sense, and logic just
to think you're right. The human mind can
deceive itself about anything, obviously.

Okay now you are just being mean and we are like ships passing in the night. Can you put your thoughts into words rather than insults so I can try to understand you?

How did God who willingly and forever become a human being, who experiences something as foreign to Him as pain, suffering, etc., etc., who truly died, who turns His justice onto Himself rather than unto us, not sacrifice? What am I missing?

Quote: FrGamble

who experiences something as foreign to Him as pain, suffering, etc., etc.,

So god experiences what we experience
every day, and for this we give him credit?
The lord of the manor lives with the riffraff
for awhile and we're supposed to be impressed?
There is no sacrifice here. It's the Bill Gates
non sacrifice, give up 1/2 of 1% of your wealth
and expect us to kiss your ring.

It's just another god myth, you aren't supposed
to think that it really happened because the
story falls apart upon close examination.