Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

I always like it when BeachBumBabs contributes. Thanks so much.

Two quick things. First there is nothing vengeful about God, in fact as you describe earlier in your post it is God that is coming to save us from the inevitable consequences of our sins. God is merciful. God is saving us not from vengeance, but reality. Sin destroys, bad hurts, evil must be punished - these are moral laws of justice. You might as well call the law of gravity vengeful in holding us on Earth. Now God indeed set these laws up, but not to hurt us, but to protect and help us. Can you imagine a sick world where evil is commended and celebrated? So an correction I would suggest is to say that because of God's love you will NOT suffer the punishments deserved by the moral law of Divine justice.

So, this is a connection in the catechism I had not previously made. You're saying that God living as Jesus changed Him from a vengeful to a merciful God. Because in the OT, he's constantly vengeful. Eve and Adam eat; they're expelled. Elijah is mocked by 42 children; God sends bears to tear them to bits. Sodom and Gomorrah worship idols and sin; they are destroyed by fire, save Lot. The world in general is full of sin; God drowns everyone save Noah, his family, his ark. He showed some mercy to Abraham in stopping him from actually sacrificing Isaac, but tested and tormented him about it first. "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord" and all that.

Which means, I guess, that the OT God was not omniscient, because He learned and changed based on Jesus' life.

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This is important to address the second thing that concerned me. The "rinse and repeat" cycle of sinners being forgiven just so they can go out and sin some more. The first step of changing ones life is not focusing on the actions themselves that need to be changed, but rather the deeper question as to why do I screw others over all week long? Changing this behavior is necessarily going to have to address this question. The answer that Christ first gives is that you are loved and forgiven. That you are good and kind and that these sins are not you and you are better than them. It takes a while sometimes for this to sink in. Sometimes people use this as a get out of jail free card. They feel uplifted and loved and go out and sin some more. This is not going to stop God from loving them but the more they encounter the love of God and feel their self worth the harder and harder it becomes to not love others and see their dignity and self worth as well. Once people are convinced that they are loved unconditionally by God and that they are good, worthy, and wonderful they realize the reason they were screwing others was because they didn't feel that in themselves. The rinse and repeat cycle continues, because we all struggle with sin, however the screwing people over all week is ended once they really understand that they are indeed and truly Good and Clean.

The attitude I displayed in writing that was a reflection of why I've disassociated from organized religion. I get (and somewhat believe in at least the moral tenets of) the pure intent more than I might indicate, as I live by them to the best of my ability. The hypocrisy and lack of integrity from the parishoners, the lack of effort to live a righteous life because "Jesus saved me", the manipulation of the flock by the priest/equivalent caste, the "holier than thou" judgement and proselytizing constantly forced on others, are abominations and distortions of the religion. I am DEEPLY angry about this; it's a betrayal at the most basic level of living as a Christian. While I do not agree with you on some of the mechanics and applications of the Faith, I think you and I see the fundamentals in similar fashion. For me, live and let live; be responsible to yourself and to your God, however you might arrive at it.

Quote: FrGamble

Okay now you are just being mean and we are like ships passing in the night. Can you put your thoughts into words rather than insults so I can try to understand you?

How did God who willingly and forever become a human being, who experiences something as foreign to Him as pain, suffering, etc., etc., who truly died, who turns His justice onto Himself rather than unto us, not sacrifice? What am I missing?

Well, first of all god never left his kingdom in the sky when he did this, instead he made a human incarnation and put it on earth.

If he willingly and forever became human, then he died on the cross and there would have been no one to answer a prayer and raise him. If he was able to answer a prayer and raise himself, then he really didn't die. If he didn't really die then he didn't forever become human.

The power of miracles such as raising the dead solely belongs to god, so if god was dead, there would be no miracles, no matter how many saints or future saints attempted to intercede.

Quote: FrGamble

Why is He a sadist? Is it because evil is permitted? Can you conceive of a reason to allow the possibility of suffering and evil?

I cannot keep my dog from suffering. But if I come across someone causing my dog pain, you can be sure I'll put a stop to it.

So, if you found someone kicking your dog, can you conceive of a reason why you would allow it to continue?

Quote: Dalex64

I watched it. I have most, possibly all of the episodes on VHS tape.

I have them all on DVD.

I win ;)

Quote: rxwine

You're pretty much the Creator. Early on, when I first read stories of people playing this game some people did evil things like let their SIMs go in a room then remove all the doors and windows. Or into the swimming pool and remove the ladder, in either case causing simulated misery by trapping them. (I guess)

Well, you get to read on the internet about what happens when you do that, so eventually you want to see it. Even though they're only computer animations, it can be pretty gruesome.

They can also die accidentally. I avoided certain items in the game because they were too risky. Starting in The Sims 2, they also age and eventually die. But you can extend their lives by various means. I tended to keep my favorites alive and young forever.

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So, suppose I could become the SIM Christ. Go down and live the life of a SIM and get crucified. I teach them the way to paradise, and punish them if they don't follow my rules.

You can't. I mean, you can't pull a Flynn and get inside the computer. But you could devise a SIM that looks like you and has a similar personality, so to some extent he is you, and he's also at least metaphorically your son.

You'll have to settle for being the SIM "God."

BTW, though the SIMs have a free will mode, if you leave them alone for an extended period of time, they tend to make a mess of their lives. Especially the SIM pets on the SIMS 2 (I never played the SIMS 3), as by default you cannot turn off their free will mode. That's very realistic, but a pain when the cat decides to spend the whole night awake grooming itself.

Quote: FrGamble

Two quick things. First there is nothing vengeful about God,

Oh, so all the cruelty is gratuitous?

I wish you'd understand this: the ancient world was a brutal place, and this included all the various gods the people of the time made up. The question is not "why is Jehovah such a cruel deity?" But rather "Why would Jehovah not be a typical deity of its time?"

I'm still trying to get a handle on your definition of sacrifice. What if Bill Gates gave up all his money and status and lived as a missionary somewhere in the Middle East, would that be a sacrifice?

Quote: Nareed

I cannot keep my dog from suffering. But if I come across someone causing my dog pain, you can be sure I'll put a stop to it.

So, if you found someone kicking your dog, can you conceive of a reason why you would allow it to continue?

Have you heard the story of the man whose only horse ran away and his neighbor came by to tell him that is just awful and bad luck. Then the horse returns with a dozen wild horses and the neighbor says "wow that is great luck I guess it was good your horse ran away." Then the man's son is caring for the horses and one of them kicks him and breaks his leg. The neighbor says, "that is awful luck, I guess it was bad that those horses came." Then a roving militia comes through the town to recruit and steal all the able bodied children and they leave the man's son because his leg was broken, the neighbor says, "well that is good luck, it was good that your son's leg was broken."

You of course should do what you can to stop someone from kicking your dog if you can, but I think if you are honest you cannot say for certain that a man who kicks your dog may not later repent from that action and start a clinic for injured dogs or that you would be so moved by that tragic even that you would not start speaking out forcefully against animal cruelty and save thousands of dogs from being abused. As I mentioned these are emotional issues in the here and now, but if you rationally think about it I think you can imagine that a good that can come from someone's free choice to do evil. God can make good come out of these things in ways you or I simply cannot know or understand till we share the same vantage point of Heaven outside of time. It's interesting that we are discussing this at the very same time I am preparing to celebrate a funeral tomorrow for a family who delivered a still born child. How could God allow this to happen is the first thought I have and we all have. It is a healthy and true one. It is only out faith in a good God who embraces this child and all of us in His love that give us any hope at all. A sadist? The furthest thing from it my friend.

Quote: Nareed

Oh, so all the cruelty is gratuitous?

I wish you'd understand this: the ancient world was a brutal place, and this included all the various gods the people of the time made up. The question is not "why is Jehovah such a cruel deity?" But rather "Why would Jehovah not be a typical deity of its time?"

This is a good question, why is YHWH so different? Why does He throughout the OT through the Patriarchs, Judges, and Prophets slowly teach His chosen people to reject this brutality all around them. Why does He continue to renew covenant after covenant after they are broken? Sure there are consequences to our sins, but this is not vengeance or cruelty. This is reality and a reality the people are warned about at every turn. Finally, in the fullness of time when the people are ready He establishes the New and Everlasting Covenant through His Son Jesus Christ, true God and true man. Now the eternal consequences of our sins are bourn by God Himself in a selfless act of sacrifice for all people. This is mercy and love in its highest form and is completely unlike any deity before or after the Lord Jesus.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm still trying to get a handle on your definition of sacrifice.

The giving up of something you prize. Wasn't
Jesus called the sacrificial lamb? But if god knew
the outcome, there was no sacrifice involved,
the game was fixed.