Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

Any religion that doesn't want to share what it has to say has nothing really valuable to say at all.

I think you just insulted the Sikh religion.

Quote: FrGamble

God can make good come out of these things in ways you or I simply cannot know or understand till we share the same vantage point of Heaven outside of time.

Suppose you were being slowly and painfully being tortured to death. Then Jesus appears to you and says "Some good which you can't even comprehend will come out of your slow and excruciating death."

Would you accept that or tell him to help you?

Quote: Dalex64

Why?

I do love to ask the question why certain things happen and to think about them so thank you. However, I must preface again that I do not know the mind of God as to why He chose to do certain things the way it was done. I think there are some important lessons to be learned but you might just as well have great answers for many of these questions too.

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Why couldn't he be like Adam before he ate from the tree? Isn't that like all of us, or did he have to be like all of us suffering all of the same penalties EXCEPT for original sin? I thought original sin was the cause of the penalties (such as why we had to till the earth). So if you remove original sin, he should have been just like Adam.

He had to be like us in all things but sin. This means that He was fully human (and fully human at the same time). He did suffer the consequences of sin without ever having sinned. He was the innocent victim, the one who finally fulfilled the Law of God perfectly and then was able to make the New and Eternal covenant through His sacrifice on the cross. So that all our sins were paid for, all our transgressions were forgiven by the innocent lamb of God. So this is all to say that yes he was like Adam before he ate from the tree without Original Sin. The difference is that He was born into our world in the normal way.

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Why couldn't god just create him like us in all things but sin?

I think His helplessness and dependence on us as a little child shows us a glimpse early on as to why and how He has come. Not as a ruler or king, but a humble servant.

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Then there would be no forcing of anything on anyone, or making a special person just to give birth to him.

Why make that person special, why not just have her give birth to him, and remove his sin, instead of removing her sin at birth?

I think there is a lesson here in that God desires us to be a part of our salvation. He wants us not to just be bystanders but active participants in His marvelous works. He wants us to cooperate, actually He needs us to cooperate - He is depending on us.

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Has anyone ever questioned why god brought jesus to us this way?

Oh my goodness, my bookshelves are filled with people from the early Church Fathers to modern theologians today asking these good thought provoking questions.

Quote: rxwine

Not true with religion or a lot of other things.

I disagree. I think we might have different views of proselytizing as BeachbumBabs points out. Evangelization by hitting people over the head with a Bible never seems to work in my opinion. Yet I would never be shy to give people a reason for my joy and peace that comes from Jesus. Think about it, if you discovered something that really helped you, wouldn't you want to tell people in a kind, respectful, and effective way? Politicians think they have answers and are not scared to tell you what they are and ask for your vote. Heck, someone who loves Rugby and found great joy in it won't shut up about what a great sport it is and why it is better than football.

If someone really thinks something is valuable and wonderful and they don't tell you about it I think it is either because they don't like you or they really aren't convinced it is super awesome.

Quote: Nareed

Suppose you were being slowly and painfully being tortured to death. Then Jesus appears to you and says "Some good which you can't even comprehend will come out of your slow and excruciating death."

Would you accept that or tell him to help you?

Both.

Quote: FrGamble

I think there is a lesson here in that God desires us to be a part of our salvation. He wants us not to just be bystanders but active participants in His marvelous works. He wants us to cooperate, actually He needs us to
cooperate - He is depending on us.

I don't understand this as an answer to my question about why did god remove original sin from Mary so that she could give birth to jesus without original sin, instead of just removing original sin from Jesus at his birth.

I also find it deeply concerning with the amount of times I see things stating that we can't know the mind of god, against the interpretation and reinterpretation of the scripture telling us what god wants.

Don't you see the problem here, with the lessons against thinking we can know the mind of god? Something happens, it was god's will, god's plan, we can't know. Contrast that with being told what the scripture means, and what god is telling us we need to do or how we need to behave.

How can you on one hand state that this is how god wants us to behave, and on the other hand state that we can't know what god wants?

Quote: Dalex64

I don't understand this as an answer to my question about why did god remove original sin from Mary so that she could give birth to jesus without original sin, instead of just removing original sin from Jesus at his birth.

Another thing just struck me, it can be shown by the way God chose to do things that life does not begin at birth, but rather at conception. Anyway, remember Jesus took on flesh in the Virgin Mary therefore she needed to be free from Original Sin so that not only could God dwell within her. God and sin don't mix and she had to be the perfect vessel to give humanity to the divine 2nd person of the Most Holy Trinity. Another thought is that God doesn't choose the quick and easy path, He always is more real and complete. The preparation of Mary and the absence of Original Sin in her and her son from conception strikes me as a more complete and real change in the person and not a quick fix to the problem.

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Don't you see the problem here, with the lessons against thinking we can know the mind of god? Something happens, it was god's will, god's plan, we can't know. Contrast that with being told what the scripture means, and what god is telling us we need to do or how we need to behave.

How can you on one hand state that this is how god wants us to behave, and on the other hand state that we can't know what god wants?

What I am saying is that admittedly God could have possibly saved us in many ways, but He did not. Why? We can discuss this and interpret what God was trying to teach us through the way He historically did save us. The Scripture and the Churches teaching is clear about the fundamental truths of what happened. As to exactly why God chose to save us the way He did that is often left for our fruitful discussion and reflection. Scripture is sometimes very clear about what we should and shouldn't do, it is not always so clear as to why God chose to do what He did. There is I think a reason for this because it leads to discussions like the one we are having.

Quote: FrGamble

There is I think a reason for this because it leads to discussions like the one we are having.

Hopefully there is more reason than that. God keeps his reasons to himself so we can talk about it?

Why? Is it part of the illusion of free will?

Why do I think that if you believe in god that free will must be an illusion?
Logical steps:
God is all-powerful and all-knowing
God knows everything that we are going to do
You can't choose to do something different from what god knows that you are already going to do.

If you can't choose to do something different than what god already knows you will do, then the choice, and free will, is an illusion.

This is, of course, a very old philosophical argument. But it is yet another question that I feel still hasn't been answered satisfactorily.

Quote: FrGamble

Both.

Oh? So you would have "God" remove the criminal's free will just because it's you who's dying? Isn't that terribly hypocritical on your part?

Quote: Nareed

Oh? So you would have "God" remove the criminal's free will just because it's you who's dying? Isn't that terribly hypocritical on your part?

I mentioned it is a very emotional issue that sometimes trumps our reason and/or will. Nevertheless I think you asked the question if I would ask God for help and accept His providence. The answer for me is both, just like Christ did in the Garden of Gethesamine. Nowhere do you ask if it would be okay to take away someone's free will, it is not.