Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

For us to have free will all that is necessary is for us to be
able to freely choose our future. If God already knows what that future will be it
has no bearing on our free will or our freedom to choose whatever it is that we
want to do.

How can you freely choose your future when everything you will do is known before you are even born?

Please very carefully explain how you have a choice if everything you will ever do is already known.

Quote: FrGamble

So do you think it is possible for a non necessary material thing to have created itself?

YES.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekpyrotic_universe

http://m.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-start-of-the-universe-with-string-theory.html

Quote: FrGamble

Maybe the universe is an elaborate dream and not real. Is that what you are suggesting?

The Hindu's beat you to it 4000 years ago.
The universe in a dream of the sleeping
god Vishnu, and what we see as reality is
an illusion called maya.

"The world is both real and unreal because it exists but is 'not what it appears to be. To say that the universe is an illusion (māyā) is not to say that it is unreal; it is to say, instead, that it is not what it seems to be, that it is something constantly being made. Māyā not only deceives people about the things they think they know; more basically, it limits their knowledge."

"Vishnu, the Supreme Soul. The Soul of all things. Vishnu sleeps, floating on the shoreless cosmic ocean, and we are the stuff of his dreams."

None of this is taken literally, of course. It's myth
who's job is to point in the right direction.

Quote: FrGamble

So do you think it is possible for a non necessary material thing to have created itself?

You can call the universe "contingent" all you want, but that won't make it so.

Material things being contingent is as obvious as the nose on your face, which is also contingent by the way.

Quote: Dalex64

YES.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekpyrotic_universe

http://m.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-start-of-the-universe-with-string-theory.html

NO. These theories don't even attempt to answer the philosophical question as to why there is something rather than nothing. Nor do they tackle the logical question that whether it is a cyclical universe of big crunches followed by expansion and repeat or the theory of the existence of strings (and anti-strings) these strings or the original matter that is cycling through crunches and expansions still had to have a beginning. It makes sense for scientists not to address these questions because it is a logical and philosophical discussion and one that is settled.

Quote: FrGamble

NO. These theories don't even attempt to answer the philosophical question as to why there is something rather than nothing. Nor do they tackle the logical question that whether it is a cyclical universe of big crunches followed by expansion and repeat or the theory of the existence of strings (and anti-strings) these strings or the original matter that is cycling through crunches and expansions still had to have a beginning. It makes sense for scientists not to address these questions because it is a logical and philosophical discussion and one that is settled.

You're right! They don't answer WHY because they don't have to! The part that you can't seem to get past is: what if there isn't a WHY, what if it just IS.

If strings are eternal and have always existed, they are part of the fabric of space, then it also doesn't matter if the universe is cyclical or if it was created from the energy of two 'branes' (which is also not matter or energy and may be eternal) colliding.

The beauty of these scientific explanations is that they are testable and falsifiable. Much like the search for the higgs-boson, the search for strings and branes is ongoing.

Scientists will be able to look at theory after theory until experiments confirm a theory and we have a natural explanation to the cause of our universe. And then they will experiment some more.

Here is another page describing how our universe could have started as a featureless void, through the collision with a parallel universe (which itself may have been a featureless void)
http://www.phschool.com/science/science_news/articles/branes_collide.html
It doesn't shy away from some of the problems with these theories, or try to explain them away with doublespeak and handwaving.

It is pointless to try to explain the philosophical reasons that the universe exists when they are describing theories which have no philosophical explanation, nor is one required.

Attributing the reason for existence to an infinitely powerful infinitely knowledgable and completely impossible being which exists entirely outside of time and space and everything that we understand about the universe is completely non-sensical.

If it is shown that there are multiple universes out there, and the mass and energy in our universe was created in a collision between universes, did god create all of those universes, our universe, all of the stars in our universe, all of the planets around all of those stars, our sun, and the planet earth just for us?. It makes no sense.

Quote: Dalex64

Attributing the reason for existence to an infinitely powerful infinitely knowledgable and completely impossible being which exists entirely outside of time and space and everything that we understand about the universe is completely non-sensical.
.

But it made perfect sense to middle eastern
sheep herders thousands of years ago around
the nightly camp fire, where these myths were
born.

Quote:

did god create all of those universes, our universe, all of the stars in our universe, all of the planets around all of those stars, our sun, and the planet earth just for us?. It makes no sense.

But it did make sense to people who
never went farther than 20 miles from
where they were born for their entire
lives. They were obviously the center
of the universe and the apple of gods
eye.

Quote: FrGamble

Take a look at what happens eventually to all perpetrators and tyrants in this life. I love Virginia's flag with an image of David standing over Goliath with the Latin phrase, "This is what happens to all tyrants". God's justice will always win out in the end. You might not be able to see it being limited to the short time on Earth, but from the vantage point of Heaven when you get there you will see God's plan and the justice that is meted out not only on earth for those who kill but the eternal justice they earn as well. You will then see and know that God does the opposite of standing by and doing nothing!

I can't accept unverifiable things such as god's justice after death since there is no way to check on that.

Of course, even if god was helping the Jews in the concentration camps, it's hard to imagine what kind of suffering would go on without him--- as they say "with friends like that...etc.,"

What I ascertain is god observing a lot of mayhem. Even our best judges would cringe at the idea at knowing the crimes while they are happening, doing nothing, except meting out justice at some point in the future. They would surely want to interfere rather than waiting around just so they can even the score later, like any sane non-homicidal person also would do.

Quote:

This is a position we haven't discussed yet and another option. God instead of either giving us freedom or taking it completely away could have limited our freedom so that in certain choices we had freedom but in other choices we were forced to obey some prime directive like Robocop or other artificial intelligence stories. I think without the radical choice to hate completely we would not have the ability to also radically chose to love completely. I also think God has given us all a conscience to help us to make the right decisions without limiting our freedom. In a certain way I believe God has stacked the deck in our favor. It is harder to hate than it is to love. We have to be taught and formed with rigor to become prejudiced and to hurt people and be mean to them. Even then we are always fighting this innate programing to respect and care for people.

Well, lots of babies and kids with little worldly experience have ended up in Heaven. Correct? Is maiming, killing and other such things really necessary?

Why won't it be harmful for them to experience heaven without more trauma and pain experience on Earth?

Your God obviously has a plan for these innocents, without all the unnecessary experience. So, it's not even necessary for all the crap he allows.

Quote:

God does not exercise ultimate control over us. He has taken a big risk in giving us freedom. A risk you can complain about and rightly criticize God for. I often wish He wouldn't have given me the freedom to make such stupid decisions in my life but then I think about the alternative and always come back to praising Him.

No, what I said is god has ultimate control over the design. And no designer gets to dismiss results when he actually knows the design. If god didn't know the design he wouldn't be responsible if it craps things up. Human parents usually don't have to take responsibility for their kids crimes because birth doesn't require knowing whether the kid they produced is good or faulty, because knowledge of the brain design is limited. God knows the design, that's why he's responsible. No different than any other designer.

Quote: FrGamble

Material things being contingent is as obvious as the nose on your face, which is also contingent by the way.

We can see how matter and energy form dust, pebbles, planets, stars and galaxies. Farther back in time we find "primitive" forms of matter (loose particles) and energy forming atoms. Farther back we find energy forming particles. And farther back we find disorganized energy. Remember matter and energy are equivalent.

At no point in time is the universe without energy. It has always been there. Ergo there is no reason to suppose it needed to be created, or even that it could be.