Simple question?

Quote: rxwine

Let's assume for the sake of argument Hitler ended up in Hell.

So, did god know Hitler was going to Hell before Hitler was born?

If god didn't, or god got it wrong that's one problem with god's omniscience.

If he did, what was the point bringing a condemned being into existence to send him to Hell? If so, some people are here just to be sent to Hell. Doesn't sound much like a loving god, just a manipulator.

An all knowing God would indeed know that Hitler was going to Hell. Hitler was not made or destined to go to Hell, his free choices would send Him there. If he chose differently he would not have gone there.

Since god knows the end and beginning, I don't see alternate versions of reality being possible. Hitler was going to Hell from before he was born and that was it.

God knew Hitler wouldn't make the right decisions before he was born.

Quote: FrGamble[/q

If what you are saying is true how could we consider anyone culpable for the choices they make?

It would destroy our criminal justice system, which
is why a big deal is not being made out of it. It's
also the reason most criminals go back to crime
when released from prison, their 'free will' tells
them it's the only choice they have, when their
real free will isn't speaking at all.

Quote: FrGamble

Okay maybe we need to define our terms. All-knowing and eternal means that God sees the past, present, and future at the same time. There are no tenses for Him.

you know this how? Is it even possible?

But that's besides the point. Assuming what you said is so, then poor Jehovah lacks free will, or indeed any freedom of action at all. while the existence of free will doe snot depend on knowing or not knowing the results of one's actions, what you describe is a state where the future has already taken place. Jehovah, then, has no choice but to act as he does because he's already done so.

It must be such a dreadful existence.

Fortunately for us, and more fortunately for Jehovah, he doesn't actually exist.

Quote:

Maybe you also don't understand all-powerful?

You've sold me on it. If "God" can't choose what he wants or needs to do, or even whether to act, he can't help but be a rotter and a bully. But fortunately for us, and even more fortunately... Oh, wait. I've already said that.

Quote: rxwine

Since god knows the end and beginning, I don't see alternate versions of reality being possible. Hitler was going to Hell from before he was born and that was it.

God knew Hitler wouldn't make the right decisions before he was born.

God knew, because He knows all things, that Hitler would use his freedom in such a way as to go to Hell. This doesn't mean Hitler was not free or that God forced him to make these choices. I know that God strived through many ways to make sure Hitler did not make the decisions he did. Like Nareed you could see this as a failure of God's and that He is not truly omnipotent if he couldn't get a human being to make the right choices. I see it rather as a respect for the gift of our free will and an acknowledgement that as poorly as Hitler used his freedom, there is hope that many more human beings now and in the future can use their freedom in such amazing and loving ways to bring many good things to our world.

Quote: Nareed

you know this how? Is it even possible?

Well logically if you are outside of time then there is no past, present, or future. You see the whole ball of wax at once. In regards to possible, um...remember al-powerful?

Quote:

But that's besides the point. Assuming what you said is so, then poor Jehovah lacks free will, or indeed any freedom of action at all. while the existence of free will doe snot depend on knowing or not knowing the results of one's actions, what you describe is a state where the future has already taken place. Jehovah, then, has no choice but to act as he does because he's already done so.

Again you are mixing your time bound thoughts and perspective with a timeless one. Admittedly this makes my brain hurt too, but YHWH does not from His perspective view acts as yet to be done or already done. We also wouldn't be correct in saying the future has already taken place if we are talking about how God sees it. We also have to remember that it is not as just God or our loved ones for that matter are sitting in Heaven twiddling their thumbs and looking at their watches waiting for us to be done with time so that we can all be reunited in the eternal joys of God's Kingdom. When you are outside of time and space, well you are outside of time. God is the essence of freedom and He is very active. He holds us all in existence and from our perspective He is very active in the present moment and we know and trust He will be in what we see as the future.

Quote:

Fortunately for us, and more fortunately for Jehovah, he doesn't actually exist.

LOL, fortunately, very, very fortunately for us God exists. In Himself if you are following the arguments for God He is a necessary being having existence in itself so there is actually no possibility He does not exist, that is if there is be something rather than nothing, which of course there is and therefore God.

Quote:

You've sold me on it. If "God" can't choose what he wants or needs to do,

Wait you lost me there. How does this refer to God's all-powerfulness?

Quote: FrGamble

Well logically if you are outside of time then there is no past, present, or future. You see the whole ball of wax at once. In regards to possible, um...remember al-powerful?

Outside of time you could not move, think or perhaps even exist, as there'd be no time to make change possible.

Quote:

Again you are mixing your time bound thoughts and perspective with a timeless one.

Oh, well. You know how it is. We have so many examples, studies and demonstrations of a timeless existence, that it's easy to get them mixed up.

Oh, wait.

Quote:

We also wouldn't be correct in saying the future has already taken place if we are talking about how God sees it.

It's easy to predict the past.

The only way to accurately predict the future is if it were equivalent with the past. That is, if it has already happened.

You could argue Jehovah exists at all places at all times and in all possible states, but then there'd be neither room nor time for anything else in the universe. Since we can see a great deal of the universe, but not even a trace of Jehovah, that's out.

Quote:

Wait you lost me there. How does this refer to God's all-powerfulness?

If Jehovah's actions are predestined because he has already performed all actions at all times, past, present and future, then he's little different from a computer program running without inputs. He can only do what he's already done. Ergo far from being all-powerful, he's powerless.

This would explain much, if we took the idea of a god seriously.

Quote: FrGamble

God knew, because He knows all things, that Hitler would use his freedom in such a way as to go to Hell. This doesn't mean Hitler was not free or that God forced him to make these choices. I know that God strived through many ways to make sure Hitler did not make the decisions he did. Like Nareed you could see this as a failure of God's and that He is not truly omnipotent if he couldn't get a human being to make the right choices. I see it rather as a respect for the gift of our free will and an acknowledgement that as poorly as Hitler used his freedom, there is hope that many more human beings now and in the future can use their freedom in such amazing and loving ways to bring many good things to our world.

God is at least as culpable as the getaway driver in a crime. Getaway drivers are punished for their involvement, even though their free will only indirectly involved the violence.

Actually god is more responsible, to be fair to all getaway drivers who have been punished.

Quote: FrGamble

God knew, because He knows all things, that Hitler would use his freedom in such a way as to go to Hell. This doesn't mean Hitler was not free or that God forced him to make these choices.

Are you sure Jesus wasn't just doing some paybacks?

Quote: FrGamble

Well logically if you are outside of time then there is no past, present, or future. You see the whole ball of wax at once.

It's ridiculous, poorly thought out statements
like this that put another nail in gods coffin.
If this describes a god, he
is about as different from us as possible.

Imagine laying in bed in the morning and
knowing exactly, in detail, what is going to
happen to you that day, and the next day,
for the rest of your life. You wouldn't get
out of bed, no human would.

Yet for the mythical god, he just loves knowing
everything at once. Which means giving him
human traits, like the ability to love, is pure
folly. You can't have it both ways, an all knowing
deity who has human emotions, the two things
are oil and water. He would be a creature totally
different from us in every way.

Better to stick with the Roman or Greek gods, they
were all about having human traits and foibles.
Your god is a child's god, a child who hasn't mastered
common sense and logic yet, who still thinks a
fat man in a red suit comes down his chimney once
a year.