Simple question?

Quote: Nareed

Because the physical laws that govern the universe and the universal laws of logic all indicate it's simply not possible?

How do you figure?!? Logic and the physical laws of the universe all point to the existence of God as the only possibility.

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But no one will ever claim energy is all powerful, as it's evident it cannot be.

Very good admission. Therefore energy itself cannot be the ultimate source of the universe.

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Therefore the next evidence for the existence of a deity that I see will be the first such evidence ever.

I think if you continue the process of determining what cannot be God you will find the logical evidence of God yourself.

Quote: FrGamble

First of all lets not forget that saying, "there is no God" is a claim. You could say, "there is no evidence for God" and then try to show why all the evidence I have provided above is not really evidence. I think in the case of Leprechauns and unicorns you can actually say there is evidence they do not exist. For example no one has really seen a unicorn or a leprechaun.

People claim to see UFOs, Yeti creatures, ghosts, virgin Mary's image on trees and houses, also.

God is just another of these claims.

Quote: FrGamble

Anyway all that above was a digression and review, the only way the main point of your post can be correct is if you mistake punishment or discipline for misery.

So your opinion is that when god makes people miserable or dead by punishing or disciplining them, that is not inflicting misery.

You are conflating the WHY with the WHAT. I wasn't asking about WHY god inflicts misery on people, just that he did.

You see the problem? It doesn't matter that the WHY is punishment or discipline, the WHAT remains - god inflicted misery (and death) on people.

So, no, I am not MISTAKING punishment or discipline for misery, I am simply not MIXING them into the same thing.

I mean, seriously. You are saying that making someone miserable by punishing them isn't inflicting misery on them.

Quote: Dalex64

I mean, seriously. You are saying that making someone miserable by punishing them isn't inflicting misery on them.

No, I am saying there is a difference between a parent spanking His child and the child falling off his bike and breaking his arm.

Quote: rxwine

People claim to see UFOs, Yeti creatures, ghosts, virgin Mary's image on trees and houses, also.

God is just another of these claims.

All of these things do have evidence for them (some have very little though) and some people think it is enough evidence to choose to believe in UFOs or in ghosts. This is how all claims are made. Assuming you are married the idea that someone loves you is also a claim based on limited evidence that leads you to make a decision. The existence of electrons, dark matter, and many other things people claim to exist are also built upon evidence some of it huge and leads to very clear and convicted claims that people trust in. The same is true about God.

Quote: FrGamble

First of all lets not forget that saying, "there is no God" is a claim. .

This is so tiring. You really think god is
hidden in words and arguments, that
the total lack of actual evidence of the
existence of a deity can be somehow
overcome by arguing him into existence.
That if you just get the right mindset, god
will pop into existence for you and if you
keep the mindset you can kid yourself
into having a relationship with him.

You'll never understand that some people
have no need for a god, so they don't invent
one. We find the whole idea creepy and off
putting. Lucky for you there will always be
plenty of people who need to be told what to
do and what to believe, you'll never have a
shortage of clients. Goofball Mormonisn is
a testament to just how desperate some people
are to follow something. If they can believe
that, you've got it made with your version of
made up baloney.

I know that intellectually there is a God, however just intellectually knowing this truth is not really believing in God. I think that belief in God cannot come from just these arguments and words, rather it needs to be experienced and felt with the heart. However, the intellectual barrier to belief in God is something that can be overcome. Therefore, I am not interested in convincing you to believe in God that needs to happen in some other way. However, I am interested in showing you that intellectually the knowledge there is a God can be clearly known and understood by all.

Quote: Evenbob

You'll never understand that some people
have no need for a god, so they don't invent
one. We find the whole idea creepy and off
putting.

Entirely this.

There are times when you (FrG) talk simply of spirituality, of feeling like there's more, of feeling some weird connection, and on that, I don't think all that many would necessarily disagree. Many if not most of my beliefs fit that mold, I can see where some of EB's do as well. I find those talks sort of interesting and very partisan. It might be the type of conversation that leads to self discovery, or at least some good back and forth.

It's the God stuff... "creepy" doesn't even begin to hit the nail for me. I mean, it does. It's beyond creepy as all hell. But there's just something about it that makes me want to end it. Something that feels like a poison or a disease. Talking about god can be fun, but something about when it turns into God,... I'm simply repulsed to my core. I do not have words to describe the feeling, and any attempt might result in the foulest, most disrespectful and anger inducing post one could make. Hence my absence in much of it.

/sigh. Such a faff. So much energy on something unknowable that we all will know far too soon.

Jesus wept.

Quote: FrGamble

However, the intellectual barrier to belief in God is something that can be overcome. .

It's called brainwashing and with the right
people it can be quite effective. It's what
cults do, and the Church is a cult that has
used all kinds of brainwashing techniques
for hundreds of years. You don't see that
you belong to a cult, or that you're using
brainwashing methods, but that's an
insidious part of the process. The people in
charge think they're doing their victims a
favor, that being a member of the cult will
be good for them.

If you could see it from where I am, looking
at it from the outside, you would be appalled.

Quote: FrGamble

For example no one has really seen a unicorn or a leprechaun.

No one's seen a god, either.

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We know that rainbows don't have ends

Really? They extend all around the universe?

Not only they have ends, often you can see where the projection ends. Even in the secondary rainbow, if you catch one.

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For you to claim that there is no God you have to provide evidence.

I'm still waiting on your proof that thousands of gods do not exist.

Why don't we make a deal? First you show me iron-clad proof that Athena, Ist, Marduk, Osiris, Knum, Thoth, Tlaloc, Vash and Demeter do not exist, and then I'll show you my proof that Jehovah does not exist.