The "problem" of evil

Quote: Dalex64

Why does God punish all of us for our entire mortal existence forever for the single act of one person?

It's the melodrama of the myth, it gives
it a personal flavor. They do the same thing
on TV and in the movies. How many times
have we seen the fate of the entire planet
hinge on the actions of one person. Myth
did it with Jesus, one man to save the whole
world.

It makes us feel important that one person can
yield that much power. It's silly nonsense, but
it makes for a good story. Even hell has just
one person in charge. It's all about archetypes,
it's what myths thrive on. It's funny when people
talk about myths like they're a thing of the past.
We have the most popular myth of all, the Jesus
Myth, alive all well. Look how many think it's
true. It's easy to understand how they thought
all the Greek and Roman myths were true, people
are very gullible.

My ex priest friend dropped out 50 years ago. To
this day he is still furious with himself that he fell
for a modern day myth. He gets mad when we
talk about it, that he could be so gullible.

Quote: Dalex64

As for original sin, again, does the punishment fit the crime?

FrGamble's answer has to be that it is just and good, because FrG puts his brain away, and everything his god does is just and good.

I'm waiting to see if he will finally say otherwise.

Quote: rxwine

If god wasn't really demented and cruel, why did he not give a mental demonstration of what Adam & Eve would face if they disobeyed him?

In other words, a dream, a short film in their heads of what awaited.

Why not do that, leave their free will intact, then let them decide?

You tell me why this would be a bad idea? If you give a decent answer I'll take back my opinion that you could start lopping off heads any second now.

It's not a bad idea at all and I imagine God did do this. He certainly made it very clear to them that they should not eat the tree in the middle of the garden and even warned them that it would lead to death.

Quote: Dalex64

So again, God had the ability to create an environment like heaven for us to live in, with freedom but no temptation, but chose not to do so. Why?

Because we were not the only free creatures that God created. He created pure spirits called angels and gave them the free choice to serve God and humanity or to reject God's plan and desire to be worshiped themselves. Those who said, "I will not serve." were doomed to hell (the real reason hell exists in the first place) and they set all their efforts to thwart and destroy God's plan and His precious human beings.

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Instead, he put two people into a paradise without sin, but with a source of temptation, knowing that they would choose to succumb to it. Why?

Knowing that they would fall doesn't mean that God should take away their freedom. Again what is preferable; sin and freedom or no sin and no freedom? He also knew He would redeem us and He also knew that we would love each other too and be capable of great and beautiful things.

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Clearly we do not need original sin in order to have the freedom to choose the wrong thing. Eve was free from original sin and chose to do the wrong thing.

Yes, we are truly free.

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As for original sin, again, does the punishment fit the crime? Is it just and good to have all of us suffer the consequences of one person, of one action, when only given the verbal instruction "don't do this," not explain the consequences, and then allow the presence of temptation to work on her and tell her "do this, it's good." ?

The consequences were explained to Adam and Eve. I don't think the punishment fits the crime. That is because my idea of justice is not perfect. God who is the perfection of love is also the perfection of justice. Perfect justice is a scary thing, it is unbendable and strict. A wrong must be punished, there can be no exception. It is a good thing that perfect love is also an attribute of God and this love is willing to take all the punishment for all the sins and therefore fulfill the need for perfect justice. As far as Adam and Eve are concerned it is a powerful story of the interconnectedness of humanity. We are all related and what we do effects each other. This Original Sin effects us all and it echoes throughout every generation. Remember though that is an echo of our Original Goodness and Perfection for which we will return in the joys of Heaven. Original Sin is not about how bad we are it is about how good we are, but we are wounded and very susceptible to the temptation of pride, selfishness, and our passions.

Evenbob I think you might not completely understand the value and purpose of myth. Myth does not mean fiction. Myths convey important fundamental truths. to ignore myth as some type of fantasy is to ignore their purpose and value. Think of the myth that Face shared recently from his Native American heritage. The myth of the pine tree is no historically true, but it passes on a deep truth about selfishness that is super important and as true as it gets.

Also if you understand myth you will also understand the unique aspects of that genre and realize that the historical account of Jesus of Nazareth is not written as a myth, but as a historical story about a real extraordinary person who was truly God.

Quote: rxwine

FrGamble's answer has to be that it is just and good, because FrG puts his brain away, and everything his god does is just and good.

Not really. When one accuses his gods of killing innocent people, such as babies for example, he shifts the blame to others.

Odd, though, that he'd concede evil is so much more powerful than his allegedly omnipotent deities.

Quote: FrGamble

Myth does not mean fiction.

"Myth: an idea or story believed by many people that's not true;
A myth is a commonly believed but false story; A fictitious story,
person, or thing."

Myths serve a purpose, they're made up stories
to get an idea or a point across. The myth of Jesus
is a made up story to tie together myths of the
past and present present them as a new stand
alone myth. You are not supposed to assume
the events really happened.

Quote: FrGamble

Because we were not the only free creatures that God created. He created pure spirits called angels and gave them the free choice to serve God and humanity or to reject God's plan and desire to be worshiped themselves. Those who said, "I will not serve." were doomed to hell (the real reason hell exists in the first place) and they set all their efforts to thwart and destroy God's plan and His precious human beings.

That does not answer my question. Why didn't God provide us with an environment free from temptation, so we would have our freedom and we would never willingly choose to do evil even though we could?

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Knowing that they would fall doesn't mean that God should take away their freedom. Again what is preferable; sin and freedom or no sin and no freedom? He also knew He would redeem us and He also knew that we would love each other too and be capable of great and beautiful things.

You present two options that I would call "the devil's choice"

Knowing they would fall means he knowingly put them into a situation in which they were doomed to fail, and all of humanity would suffer as a result.

I would choose freedom and no sin. Why wasn't that an option? Before you deflect, please don't forget three sentences ago when I pointed out that Adam and Eve were put into a situation in which they were doomed to fail.

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Yes, we are truly free.


The consequences were explained to Adam and Eve.

Sorry I missed that part. "You will surely die" is a bit misleading. I mean, they didn't die right away, they lost their immortality. Them and anyone else who would ever exist.

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I don't think the punishment fits the crime.

Then we agree on something.

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That is because my idea of justice is not perfect. God who is the perfection of love is also the perfection of justice. Perfect justice is a scary thing, it is unbendable and strict. A wrong must be punished, there can be no exception. It is a good thing that perfect love is also an attribute of God and this love is willing to take all the punishment for all the sins and therefore fulfill the need for perfect justice. As far as Adam and Eve are concerned it is a powerful story of the interconnectedness of humanity. We are all related and what we do effects each other. This Original Sin effects us all and it echoes throughout every generation. Remember though that is an echo of our Original Goodness and Perfection for which we will return in the joys of Heaven. Original Sin is not about how bad we are it is about how good we are, but we are wounded and very susceptible to the temptation of pride, selfishness, and our passions.

You are now running away from the simple questions I put forth with sermonizing. Really? You think that God did perfect justice to us, but you just don't understand it? This is an example of what I was pointing out a few days ago - something makes no sense therefore you declare that we can't understand things the way god understands things.

It is this simple - why did God put us into a situation in which he knew we would fail, thereby allowing evil and suffering to be inflicted upon us all, when he clearly had the power to do things differently, giving us our freedom without temptation, like you said it is in heaven?

Quote: Dalex64

Then we agree on something, and you think God was wrong.

We kind of agree. Remember I am judging God based on my imperfect idea of justice. It is not God who is wrong, it is me.

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It is this simple - why did God put us into a situation in which he knew we would fail, thereby allowing evil and suffering to be inflicted upon us all, when he clearly had the power to do things differently, giving us our freedom without temptation, like you said it is in heaven?

Well this good question moves us further than the freedom vs. non freedom question. We all agree that freedom is better. Now the question is which is better the challenges we have to face in dealing with temptation and keeping us in the crib, so to speak. What I mean is that I do imagine there could be freedom and not the presence of the tempter (even though I wonder if that would then limit the freedom of the tempter to want to destroy us). However, what do we gain by facing temptation and overcoming it? In my life I know that I have become a better person in falling but learning from that fall and growing stronger in rejecting the temptation of sin. I would be less of who I am today if I was kept safe and sound in the crib without the challenge that comes from temptation. If I can see that I imagine God sees that even more and rejoices in the strength we have the opportunity to show when we are tempted and resist.

Quote: FrGamble

In my life I know that I have become a better person in falling but learning from that fall and growing stronger in rejecting the temptation of sin.

But this makes no sense. If you're perfect,
in a perfect environment like heaven, you
would never need to learn anything. Why
would god put you here, unless it's some
kind of sadistic game he's playing. You say
he knows the outcome of everything before
it happens. It would mean enjoys seeing
the suffering, that's the only explanation.

Of course, god doesn't exist. Men saw suffering,
and they invented a story for it called The Fall.
They reverse engineered, which religion is so
great at doing. They see a result, so they invent
the story that led there.