The "problem" of evil

Scenario:

FrGamble is discussing with someone of another religion a particular practice. He manages to illicit a response from the other person that though that person doesn't understand (for instance why infidels should be killed instead of allowed to be judged in the afterlife), the person says, he doesn't understand his god's reasoning, but is convinced his god MUST be right.

FrGamble is stymied. That's the same answer he's given on a different matter. There's just no reasoning with these people.

I think I made it clear that I know that I am wrong considering the injustice attributed to God, not because God MUST be right but because God unlike myself has a notion of perfect justice.

Quote: Evenbob

But this makes no sense. If you're perfect,
in a perfect environment like heaven, you
would never need to learn anything. Why
would god put you here, unless it's some
kind of sadistic game he's playing.

It is not a game and it is not sadistic. It is life and life is not easy, but God gives us the faith, the grace, the mercy, and the solidarity of community and family to help us not be overcome by it.

Quote:

They see a result, so they invent
the story that led there.

I guess in your mind it is better to ignore the result and reality and remain in ignorance.

Quote: FrGamble

I guess in your mind it is better to ignore the result and reality and remain in ignorance.

It actually is, if your going to invent a
cause that's so off the wall and impossible
to prove that you have to force people
to believe it. It is better to live in ignorance
than under the boot heel of somebody
elses wrong ideas.

Quote: FrGamble

I think I made it clear that I know that I am wrong considering the injustice attributed to God, not because God MUST be right but because God unlike myself has a notion of perfect justice.

You've really conceded nothing of importance.

That perfect justice bit doesn't hide it.

You're not any different than the most malignant cult member who finally resorts to his master or god knows what's best even if he doesn't know why.

Quote: FrGamble

We kind of agree. Remember I am judging God based on my imperfect idea of justice. It is not God who is wrong, it is me.





Well this good question moves us further than the freedom vs. non freedom question. We all agree that freedom is better. Now the question is which is better the challenges we have to face in dealing with temptation and keeping us in the crib, so to speak. What I mean is that I do imagine there could be freedom and not the presence of the tempter (even though I wonder if that would then limit the freedom of the tempter to want to destroy us). However, what do we gain by facing temptation and overcoming it? In my life I know that I have become a better person in falling but learning from that fall and growing stronger in rejecting the temptation of sin. I would be less of who I am today if I was kept safe and sound in the crib without the challenge that comes from temptation. If I can see that I imagine God sees that even more and rejoices in the strength we have the opportunity to show when we are tempted and resist.

Why didn't God just make us to be better people in the first place, not needing to face temptation and overcome it to become a better person?

And you have said before, or at least implied, that we are no less free in heaven than we are here.

In the garden of Eden, before the fall, were they "in the crib" and somehow ignorant or naive and in need of improvement? If so, why did God create such imperfect beings (in his own image, of course)

The short version is I don't think the answers to my simple questions make any sense, so those are some of the reasons I don't believe in God in the way that the catholics believe him to be.

Quote: rxwine

That perfect justice bit doesn't hide it.

What don't you understand about it. Instead of condemning and insulting it is much better to ask questions.

Quote:

You're not any different than the most malignant cult member who finally resorts to his master or god knows what's best even if he doesn't know why.

I do know why and I have failed to explain it to you, I'm sorry. God who created us to be perfect with Him forever in Heaven needed to give us freedom so we could truly love and chose the right. The evil one comes to corrupt and destroy God's plan by attacking us and playing upon our pride. Never for an instant, even after our fall were we left abandoned or without the promised hope of our salvation. God knew that this sin would taint humanity and also that His perfect justice demanded the consequence of sin be paid in full, namely death. His perfect love would pay the price for our sin and He would die in our place so as to free us forever from this dreaded, but fair punishment. I know very well why God did what He had to do to fulfill justice and the love.

Quote: Evenbob

It actually is, if your going to invent a
cause that's so off the wall and impossible
to prove that you have to force people
to believe it. It is better to live in ignorance
than under the boot heel of somebody
elses wrong ideas.

I agree with you that a wrong idea is not a solution. Can you tell me why the Christian anthropology is wrong? Can you offer another more satisfying answer to the situation we find ourselves in as human beings?

Quote: Dalex64

In the garden of Eden, before the fall, were they "in the crib" and somehow ignorant or naive and in need of improvement? If so, why did God create such imperfect beings (in his own image, of course)

Another very good question. We were indeed made perfect, but what makes us so amazing as finite beings invited into the eternal is our constant increase in learning and in love. These two aspects of ourselves are seeming inexhaustible, limited only by our physical health at times (at least our learning capability). We were not imperfect in the Garden of Eden but we were constantly and perfectly growing in our love for each other and God. We were also increasing constantly in our understanding of the world around us and in knowledge. Human beings are not imperfect when we are growing in knowledge and love. In fact this is what makes us human. We will never fully grasp the infinite but we are never more happy and fulfilled than when we grow in these two unique and unquenchable desires in ourselves to love more perfectly and learn. We are only truly imperfect when we use our freedom to hate or to embrace falsehood. This is what Original Sin did. You can see the effects immediately as Adam and Eve turn on each other and embrace the falsehood that God is somehow a competitor to their happiness or there to limit them.

Quote: FrGamble

I agree with you that a wrong idea is not a solution. Can you tell me why the Christian anthropology is wrong?

To an atheist, Christian anthropology is the study
of egoism and narcissism. Invent a god that
makes you in his image, than make yourself
the center of that gods universe. You're so
important that he cares every time you fart
sideways. You're not only the center of his
universe now, but if you play your cards
right, it can be for eternity. You end up with
a head swollen so big, it's a wonder you don't
tip over from the balloon size of it.

Quote:

Can you offer another more satisfying answer to the situation we find ourselves in as human beings?

You mean the natural situation of being human,
with all our quirks and flaws and odds ways of
thinking? What's the answer? There is no question
so there is no answer. We are what we are. Live
as best you can, be courteous, treat others as
you would like to be treated, and don't worry
about it. Pretty simple, actually.