The Coronavirus thread

Quote: AZDuffman

I would buy your line on rights of a private establishment if you side did not cheer people trying to run a private baker out of business for declining business. Or your side's support of laws forcing businesses to allow anyone in the ladies room. Or your support of a POTUS who will force girl's sports to let boys compete.

Should people have to wear some kind of identification to say if they were vaccinated or not? You know, so people could decide to distance or not?

From the Libertarian perspective, the baker should have the right to decline the business of whatever person he/she wants. Similarly, those whose business was declined have the right to broadcast same by any legal means available to them. Everyone else has the right to patronize or not patronize the baker accordingly.

It's all free association and free speech in action, every step of the way.

I'm not getting into the restroom thing again other than to say that the religious right's obsession with equating taking a wee wee or a poo poo to anything sexual remains an extremely weird trait of theirs.

Quote: Mission146

From the Libertarian perspective, the baker should have the right to decline the business of whatever person he/she wants. Similarly, those whose business was declined have the right to broadcast same by any legal means available to them. Everyone else has the right to patronize or not patronize the baker accordingly.

It's all free association and free speech in action, every step of the way.

Don't tell me, tell the lefties on here.

"Papers Please"

Isn't your constitution supposed to protect the citizens from that kind of control? Of course the country did start down the slippery slope of giving up those rights after 9-11. The 3000 people who died in that attack do seem rather inconsequential against the 400,000 plus deaths from Covid.

Quote: kenarman

"Papers Please"

Isn't your constitution supposed to protect the citizens from that kind of control? Of course the country did start down the slippery slope of giving up those rights after 9-11. The 3000 people who died in that attack do seem rather inconsequential against the 400,000 plus deaths from Covid.

You are living in interesting times. If you wonder how fascists and communists get people to rat their neighbors out, just look at the reactions to masks. The behavior of the maskers has again lowered my opinion of and trust in human nature.

Quote: SOOPOO

... The one thing I do know is is that as soon as the J and J and Astra Zeneca vaccines are approved, there will be virtually no problem to get the country vaccinated, and the Biden administration will take credit for its great 'distribution' plan.

I notice the language used in the media. When talking about POTUS Trump being in office during the development of Covid vaccines it is referred to as a "Rollout". When referring to Biden's participation in getting folks vaccinated it is referred to as "a Plan".

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: Gandler

Quote: AZDuffman

Sounds to me like something the USSR would make people carry. People who like the rules of their HOA will love it. Regular folks not so much.

This is a great equivalency , perhaps unintentionally. Its the free market. Don't like a club that demands a passport to demask then don't go.
If you don't like a subdivision that requires you to maintain your house in a certain way, don't buy there.

Its the joys of arming the private sector with the ability to properly regulate. Some people will choose to be around people who are healthy and safe and that is our right, just as it is yours's (or whoever) to go to a densely packed club (or casino or whatever) that allow no masks and no checks.
Personally I would pay a door fee just to know that there is a vaccine passport check.

I would buy your line on rights of a private establishment if you side did not cheer people trying to run a private baker out of business for declining business. Or your side's support of laws forcing businesses to allow anyone in the ladies room. Or your support of a POTUS who will force girl's sports to let boys compete.

Should people have to wear some kind of identification to say if they were vaccinated or not? You know, so people could decide to distance or not?

What? How does this relate to COVID (I actually agree with the Supreme Court on this issue)

As for girls in boy sports, this is an evolving area that there is no clear answer to, and many pending decisions to be made. Its the one aspect of Title IX (at least relating to sports) that is likely to change a lot for the next 10 years (probably more).

Quote: SOOPOO

You all do know that as of now there is no evidence that being vaccinated does not prevent you from being an asymptomatic carrier that can still
transmit the disease? And best case has 1/20 vaccinated people not really having protection? And the newer not yet approved vaccines may not even be that good?

No vaccine passport, please. But I totally agree that a private business can require one for entrance. Then the free market will decide if the business will succeed or fail.

The hospital I worked at placed a color coded sticker on your ID card when you got your annual flu shot. Without it you were required to wear a mask (a real hospital grade one) at all times on the premises. I think October through June.

This is true (though the science is constantly changing). Which is why it makes sense to allow people without a passport to keep a mask on, for their protection if nothing else.

As for no vaccine passport except for private business. I agree, which was my original point. Tech companies and social media companies are developing these for our own protection (and to arm private businesses with additional enforcement options), this is not something that governments plan to adopt (at least not in America).

Quote: Mission146

From the Libertarian perspective, the baker should have the right to decline the business of whatever person he/she wants. Similarly, those whose business was declined have the right to broadcast same by any legal means available to them. Everyone else has the right to patronize or not patronize the baker accordingly.

It's all free association and free speech in action, every step of the way.

I'm not getting into the restroom thing again other than to say that the religious right's obsession with equating taking a wee wee or a poo poo to anything sexual remains an extremely weird trait of theirs.

Which was basically the SCOTUS decision (you cannot discriminate against gay people, except they -the Bakery- were not, they allowed gay people to shop freely, they just did not want to undertake special projects for gay weddings because they viewed that as contrary to their religion, they were not refusing sales to gay people or barring them from the store). I think the Court ruled perfectly on this case.

I personally think its silly to use religion to influence special projects relating to business (especially high dollar wedding cakes), but that is their right.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-111_new2_22p3.pdf

Quote: kenarman

"Papers Please"

Isn't your constitution supposed to protect the citizens from that kind of control? Of course the country did start down the slippery slope of giving up those rights after 9-11. The 3000 people who died in that attack do seem rather inconsequential against the 400,000 plus deaths from Covid.

No. It is well established that the Bill of Rights only protects citizens from government. Private establishments are allowed to make whatever requirements they want.

For example the DMV cannot kick you out for having a vulgar shirt, but a private bar can (or not allow you in). Just like how most clubs enforce some level of dress code, this is not different, except it proves you are proactive with your health.

The same way private employers can make a rule against their employees using tobacco (even "off the clock"). Its back to the argument nobody forces you to work there or give business to a place that you disagree with policies of.

For example I will never buy an Apple product because of their attempts to limit 3rd party repairs (along with their deplorable conditions for workers and tax avoidance and an endless bevy of other issues). Most people here probably buy apple products, that is their right, but I will personally not indulge (I bought an Ipad once in a country where it was the only option years ago, and I think my parents gave me an Ipod for music when it was a new thing when I was very young).

Quote: Gandler

What? How does this relate to COVID (I actually agree with the Supreme Court on this issue)

It is about liberal hypocrisy. You are in favor of denying service when it comes to vaccines but not when it comes to gays.

Quote:

As for girls in boy sports, this is an evolving area that there is no clear answer to, and many pending decisions to be made. Its the one aspect of Title IX (at least relating to sports) that is likely to change a lot for the next 10 years (probably more).

What has to "evolve?" Girls play girls sports boys play boys. ZERO crossover in single sex sports should be allowed. And yes, that means some girl who wants to placekick in football gets told "too bad."

Quote: AZDuffman

It is about liberal hypocrisy. You are in favor of denying service when it comes to vaccines but not when it comes to gays.

Not really, one is a health crisis, and one is about discrimination.

If there is a legitimate business (such as blood collection) with a legitimate medical concern where it is impractical to accept blood from gays because of the increased risk of HIV or other diseases, that is one thing because the cost of screening could outweigh the cost of good blood (you need to have a three month break from sex under current Federal guidelines, it used to be any gay sex even once in your life was a lifetime ban).

https://www.redcrossblood.org/donate-blood/how-to-donate/eligibility-requirements/lgbtq-donors.html

But, there is no medical reason to ban gay people from shopping at a store other than bigotry. There is a medical reason for business to want customers to wear masks or show proof of vaccinations.

Quote: AZDuffman

What has to "evolve?" Girls play girls sports boys play boys. ZERO crossover in single sex sports should be allowed. And yes, that means some girl who wants to placekick in football gets told "too bad."

Personally, I think co-ed sports are going to grow post-COVID (especially when it comes to non-contact sports like golf and billiards, sports that really should be co-ed anyway and are only not "because that is how it has always been"....), this will both make Title IX compliance easier, and negate the transgender issue without having to make tough decisions.

But, a lot has to evolve, there are many different moving legal pieces, and a lot will change over the next ten years (probably longer) in regards to other sports (sports that involve more heavy contact).

Quote: Gandler

Personally, I think co-ed sports are going to grow post-COVID (especially when it comes to non-contact sports like golf and billiards, sports that really should be co-ed anyway and are only not "because that is how it has always been"....), this will both make Title IX compliance easier, and negate the transgender issue without having to make tough decisions.

But, a lot has to evolve, there are many different moving legal pieces, and a lot will change over the next ten years (probably longer) in regards to other sports (sports that involve more heavy contact).

You are dodging the real issue. I guess you are part of the war on women the transgender movement is waging.

Quote: AZDuffman

You are dodging the real issue. I guess you are part of the war on women the transgender movement is waging.

Not at all. I think whenever possible gender neutral (co-ed) sports should be the answer, it will solve many Title IX issues at once.

As for more contact heavy sports, there are many cases and pieces of legislation going back and forth so we do not know the answer yet, and likely will not for some time.