Chauvin trial

Quote: JCW09

A day later and I am retracting the above.
The jury missed it & just mailed in the verdict taking the path of least resistance.
Does anyone believe the jury carefully weigh both sides of the case presented over 3 weeks in a mere 10 hours?
It only took them 40 minutes to review each day's evidence with 12 individuals asking pertinent questions?

Umm...yeah. He knelt on a guy's neck for several minutes. I'm not sure that there's a whole hell of a lot that requires deliberation on that one.

Both sides in a trial are going to take their time and present everything they have, so I don't think that there's any requirement that a jury spend x minutes in deliberations for every y minutes both sides spent presenting their cases.

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I stand by my statement that the 3rd Degree Murder charge was inapplicable.
Chauvin's actions that day did not "perpetrate an act eminently dangerous to others"
The "Others" is plural for a reason. Chauvin may have perpetrated an act dangerous to George, but that's not 3rd Degree.
3rd Degree requires depraved heart (e.g. shooting into a crowd, intentionally driving onto a sidewalk, brick off a freeway overpass, etc.)
You didn't intend to murder any specific person, you intended to perpetrate an eminently dangerous act towards a group of others
There was no group of others in this case.

How did they not? IT's not dangerous to kneel on someone's neck for several minutes and continue to do so when the subject is saying, "I can't breathe," and bystanders are informing you as to same? Not to mention continuing to do it after the subject goes limp.

Of course, the, "Graffiti artists," need a damn spelling lesson. If I see, "I can't breath," on one more building, I'm going to scream.

The, "Others," is not plural for a reason. There are many laws that use the word, "Others," simply to describe any person or people other than the actor.

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The Jury expects us to believe that while carefully considering the case, none of them had any questions for the judge?
Really?!? They understood the nuances of the law under each of the charges that well? Bull$hit
They clearly didn't understand 3rd Degree Murder!
My guess is the jury went into the room, no one had the intelligence or the balls to ask any serious questions.
They all voted guilty in the first 30 minutes of deliberation & then said we better wait until tomorrow to say we're all done.
I could care less about Chauvin, I think he pressed down on that criminal for too long.
But the mob rule mentality that has been given the "wink & nod" from the Jury Box in this case is not good for the country.

I can say that if I were on the jury; I'd be completely unconcerned with the nuances of the law. There's a video of him kneeling on the subject's neck for several minutes. There were scores of eyewitnesses to the event. I'm pretty well ready to find him guilty of whatever you want to charge him with, and I'm usually the guy you would want on your jury.

Anyway, it is good for the country in this case. No riots for the time being. Besides, the Third Degree may well be challenged on appeal as to whatever you said and more. An appeals court can reverse and remand for retrial just the third degree murder charge and keep the other guilty verdicts.

If his attorneys had thought that the whole finding would rest on legal minutiae, then theoretically they could have waived Chauvin's right to a jury trial and instead requested a bench trial. Of course, you'll usually go with the jury trial because you only need one to hang the thing.

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I could have seen them come back with Murder 2 guilty verdict believing intent and acquitted on 3rd Degree & Manslaughter.
I would have believed they gave a $hit if they had acquitted on Murder 2 & 3 and convicted on Manslaughter.
But guilty on all three charges, that jury didn't know WTF they were even supposed to be considering in deliberations.

If you're right, then that's what appeals are for. Also, he could have requested a bench trial.

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But jury's get it wrong, Rodney King jury got it wrong. OJ's jury got it wrong. it happens.

"Lock and Load" Ladies & Gentlemen, the police are even less likely to be answering those 911 calls for help
Career cops are retiring in mass across the country & no one is signing up to replace them
Response times will stretch out, white officers won't even respond to call concerning a non-white suspect.
Why take a chance, just write a report on the murder/rape/armed robbery later
Take that same path of least resistance that the jury took in Floyd case.

The mob wants to defund the Police, so be it, take care of yourselves.
It's like AMS said, if you aren't getting a COVID Vaccine, you're on you own.
It will be like that for Black & Brown communities in every major city.
Not taking the vaccine equals defunding the police, I sure as hell don't care what you do.
But you will get to live with the consequences.

It's no wonder guns and ammo keep flying off the shelves.
Might I recommend investing in VSTO (closed @ $32.16), earnings due out on 5/6.
if you don't think there is an ammo shortage in this country for the next 24 months,
I think I know someone that has a bridge for sale.

OJ's jury did get it wrong, but I don't think this one did. Even if you're right, screw it, who cares? Just find him guilty on all charges and let the appeals court reverse and remand whatever charges they wish to reverse and remand.

911 calls for help for what, originally? Wasn't it passing a counterfeit $20, or something? Hell, I'd almost prefer they not be deployed for that so that they can be ready to act at a second's notice in the event of an emergency that actually matters.

Mission

I don't think Chauvin did the right thing here
I can get behind a manslaughter conviction
But you're wrong on the meaning of 3rd Degree Murder in MN
Others and a "depraved heart" are key to 3rd Degree murder, otherwise the actions are 2nd Degree.
If not, why does 2nd Degree murder in that statute directly before 3rd Degree say intent to cause the death of any "person".
You got it as wrong as the dumb F*ck Jury did.

The jury needed to deliberate on the causation and intent issues.
From the video, you could tell what caused George to die?
That is some kind of medical degree you must have.
Was it he 8 times he yelled I can't breathe or I am choking while he was in the back of the squad car that tipped you off?
When exactly did his medical emergency related to his inability to breathe begin?
If you listen to George, he was claiming he couldn't breathe well before he asked to be put on the ground.
So George is telling the truth when he is on the ground saying he can't breath,
But while in the back of the squad car saying the same thing he was lying?

Disappointed to hear you say "well it's good for the country"
Sure hope you are never on the wrong side of the Mob
And you won't be, because you aren't going to be passing counterfeit bills
Taking Meth & Fentanyl laced pills while perpetrating other criminal activities
Resisting arrest & all the other dominoes that George put in place.
He isn't without any blame in the events of 5/25/20.
If he just gets into the back of the squad car, none of this happens.

But yes, let's definitely name a square and a street after this drug addict & career criminal.
The hero's BLM picks are usually such remarkable people.
When you start with a thug like Michael Brown, you'd think you could only go up from there.
Wrong you are!

The cops aren't coming for anything any more.
In a world where they are accused of wrong doing for shooting someone in the act of stabbing another person
That seems like the time they all say "F it", we'll just put a chalk outline around the 16-year olds body
The discussion with the stab victims parents will go something like this:
"We would have come to shoot the murderer before your daughter was stabbed to death,
but you remember how that Ohio situation turned out for us, so we just decided to wait"
Sorry we couldn't be here quicker, but the risk reward decision dictated that the best answer for us was to wait.

Meanwhile VSTO up 3.4% today
Can sell those bullets fast enough

Yes, Floyd had complained of can’t breathe, likely for different reasons.
He said as they were trying to shove him into the squad car, “Let me count.”

“Mental distractions such as counting can also help you escape your panic symptoms. You might try counting from one to 10 out of order. You can also combine your counting with your breathing exercise.”

Whether he was taking advice someone gave him for panic due to claustrophobic feelings, we’ll never know.

Quote: rxwine

Do you believe he wasn't aware he was putting excessive pressure?

Yes, I believe that but I don't believe he was consciously trying to kill him.

Quote: rxwine

Yes, Floyd had complained of can’t breathe, likely for different reasons.
He said as they were trying to shove him into the squad car, “Let me count.”

“Mental distractions such as counting can also help you escape your panic symptoms. You might try counting from one to 10 out of order. You can also combine your counting with your breathing exercise.”

Whether he was taking advice someone gave him for panic due to claustrophobic feelings, we’ll never know.

So you agree he was having difficulty breathing before Chauvin touched him for the first time?
What caused his body to start shutting down its breathing capabilities well before he was on the ground?
Do you think the jury spent any time thinking about this issue?
To be honest, I thought Defense Attorney Nelson did a terrible job raising this issue in the trial.
He should have hammered it home that either Floyd started having a medical emergency before Chauvin went hands on
Or he was lying at the time and how is anyone supposed to believe him when he later says he can't breathe?
Either way, Chauvin was on him too long, but it does bring in to question whether George dies that day regardless of being held down.
Do you think a perfectly healthy individual that isn't high on meth & Fentanyl with a 90% arterial blockage dies under Chauvin's use of force?
I have my doubts.
That doesn't make Chauvin not guilty of a crime, but manslaughter was the right charge all along.

Quote: JCW09

So you agree he was having difficulty breathing before Chauvin touched him for the first time?

In effect, he may have been breathing too much before the squad car shoving, because of possible hyperventilation. But there's still physiological effects.

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Hyperventilation is breathing that is deeper and more rapid than normal. It causes a decrease in the amount of a gas in the blood (called carbon dioxide, or CO2). This decrease may make you feel lightheaded, have a rapid heartbeat, and be short of breath. It also can lead to numbness or tingling in your hands or feet, anxiety, fainting, and sore chest muscles.

Although I think this is likely what happened, there would have to be more supporting evidence. Like for instance, if we absolutely heard him say he was using a calming method.

Quote: JCW09

Mission

I don't think Chauvin did the right thing here
I can get behind a manslaughter conviction
But you're wrong on the meaning of 3rd Degree Murder in MN
Others and a "depraved heart" are key to 3rd Degree murder, otherwise the actions are 2nd Degree.
If not, why does 2nd Degree murder in that statute directly before 3rd Degree say intent to cause the death of any "person".
You got it as wrong as the dumb F*ck Jury did.

Maybe, but what I'm saying is that I don't care and it's possible that some members of the jury don't care. Not only did Chauvin make no attempt to help Floyd, he made no attempt to reduce the possibility that he was going to kill him. I don't know how much more depraved a person can get than putting pressure on the neck of someone who has been unconscious for minutes.

To be clear, I'm not saying that you're wrong. I'm saying that the appeals court will handle it if you're right, and having been found guilty on the other charges, it's not like he wouldn't have been incarcerated for however long the appeals process takes anyway.

Tough jury to be on. Even if you wanted to vote against Third Degree, you have to kind of wonder if some nutjob isn't going to figure out who you are and come kill you for doing so. People don't really ask to be on jury lists or to be assigned to any particular case.

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The jury needed to deliberate on the causation and intent issues.
From the video, you could tell what caused George to die?
That is some kind of medical degree you must have.
Was it he 8 times he yelled I can't breathe or I am choking while he was in the back of the squad car that tipped you off?
When exactly did his medical emergency related to his inability to breathe begin?
If you listen to George, he was claiming he couldn't breathe well before he asked to be put on the ground.
So George is telling the truth when he is on the ground saying he can't breath,
But while in the back of the squad car saying the same thing he was lying?

I don't have a medical degree and I imagine, probabilistically, nobody on the jury does either. I see a video of Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck for several minutes, many of those whilst Floyd had gone completely limp and it satisfies me that Chauvin never needs to see the light of day again.

Assuming Floyd was telling the truth at all times, it's tough for me to speculate that kneeling on his neck for several minutes was a better thing for him than being assisted by a paramedic. But, again, I'm not a doctor.

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Disappointed to hear you say "well it's good for the country"
Sure hope you are never on the wrong side of the Mob
And you won't be, because you aren't going to be passing counterfeit bills
Taking Meth & Fentanyl laced pills while perpetrating other criminal activities
Resisting arrest & all the other dominoes that George put in place.
He isn't without any blame in the events of 5/25/20.
If he just gets into the back of the squad car, none of this happens.

Funny thing, I had the cops called on me for that! It was a real bill, though, idiot gas station attendant. I even knew what bank it came from. They confiscated it, determined it was real and I recall they brought it back to me at the hotel because they knew I worked there. The cops may or may not have been at that hotel every now and then anyway.

Even accepting everything you said as absolutely true, you still don't kneel on a guy's neck for ten minutes. Most things are pretty complicated, this one, not so much. He's restrained. He's surrounded by guys with guns and all sorts of other weapons. He's limp.

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But yes, let's definitely name a square and a street after this drug addict & career criminal.
The hero's BLM picks are usually such remarkable people.
When you start with a thug like Michael Brown, you'd think you could only go up from there.
Wrong you are!

I never suggested a street should be named after him, a square or even a park bench. The people who decide the names can name stuff after whatever they like. I'd name stuff after fictional characters that I like. Obi-Wan Kenobi Terrace, anyone?

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The cops aren't coming for anything any more.
In a world where they are accused of wrong doing for shooting someone in the act of stabbing another person
That seems like the time they all say "F it", we'll just put a chalk outline around the 16-year olds body
The discussion with the stab victims parents will go something like this:
"We would have come to shoot the murderer before your daughter was stabbed to death,
but you remember how that Ohio situation turned out for us, so we just decided to wait"
Sorry we couldn't be here quicker, but the risk reward decision dictated that the best answer for us was to wait.

I think the answer is something between that and no-knock warrants where someone like Breyonna Taylor ends up dead.

Quote: Mission146

I think the answer is something between that and no-knock warrants where someone like Breyonna Taylor ends up dead.

Breonna Taylor is dead for one reason only, her boyfriend fired blindly into a dark hallway that had cops at the other end of it.
The consensus in that case that despite it being a "no knock" warrant, the cops did announce themselves.
The boyfriend is freaked out because he knows that Breonna has been in a previous relationship with a drug runner.
He thinks its drug dealers breaking down the door.
Turns out one of the four cardinal rules of gun safety is identifying your target and what is beyond it.
He didn't do that & he got Breonna killed as a result.
He should be going to jail for 3rd Degree Murder.
His actions per her life in imminent danger and she died as a result.
That's a textbook example of 3rd Degree.

Quote: JCW09

Breonna Taylor is dead for one reason only, her boyfriend fired blindly into a dark hallway that had cops at the other end of it.
The consensus in that case that despite it being a "no knock" warrant, the cops did announce themselves.
The boyfriend is freaked out because he knows that Breonna has been in a previous relationship with a drug runner.
He thinks its drug dealers breaking down the door.
Turns out one of the four cardinal rules of gun safety is identifying your target and what is beyond it.
He didn't do that & he got Breonna killed as a result.
He should be going to jail for 3rd Degree Murder.
His actions per her life in imminent danger and she died as a result.
That's a textbook example of 3rd Degree.

Are the police still obligated to correctly ID their target in such a case?
.