Is Portland over?

July 12th, 2021 at 9:31:00 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: AZDuffman
Portland, et al on the left coast seem to prefer it.


It is basically weak-minded people who have no idea how to stand up for themselves so they get steamrolled every time. They don't like people crapping on their sidewalks but they would never tell them not to do it because that person might not like them then. It's a character deficient disorder.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
July 12th, 2021 at 9:31:04 AM permalink
Mission146
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Quote: AZDuffman
You roust them. Make it as uncomfortable as possible to be homeless. This can range from making benches in such a way that they are uncomfortable to be on for long periods (don't laugh, the Pittsburgh subway did this when it opened) to knocking their tents off the sidewalks to yes arresting them if they are hassling people for money. Sooner or later the message gets thru that the place they are at is not a place to set up camp.

See, in the liberal cities homeless are shooting up and taking dumps in alleys between buildings, owners have blocked them off. What happens? The locals criticize the building owners! The homeless get the message that they can do whatever they want in SF and other liberal western cities where the same thing happens.

In NYC, Rudy understood this and did "broken window" policing. It worked. But it has to be a permanent thing. In NY the local liberals got used to the city being nicer so they said to stop the "mean" policing. Now they will get to live in a sty again, the way they seem to prefer it. Portland, et al on the left coast seem to prefer it.


I don't understand the notion of arresting them whatsoever. What the hell does that accomplish? First of all, you would have to pay police to foot patrol to even be on the lookout for such a thing, so that's staffing costs. Secondly, you increase the rate of police/civilian interactions which, by correlation, will increase the rate of violent police/civilian incidents. Third, these incidents are going to be taking place in densely populated areas which may have a more negative impact on innocent bystanders than the fact that they have to walk by and ignore the panhandlers. Fourth, jails cost money and would need to have increased staffing. Fifth and finally, you're going to end up feeding them whilst they are in jail anyway.

Therefore, I conclude that the police scenario is probably more expensive as relates your taxpayer.

I've spent a good deal of time in Downtown big (or bigger) city areas and I have never seen a single panhandler instigate a violent confrontation with someone who refused to give them anything. I grant that being asked can be something of a hassle, especially for people who aren't necessarily as big as I am, but I've never witnessed anything happen to anyone who declined during daylight hours.

Hell, I usually get asked anytime I am in the Downtown area. I figure they approach me because I look like I can take care of myself, which I can, so they know I am not going to be afraid of them and maybe more likely to engage and/or give them something.

I've never actually seen a tent on the sidewalk in Pittsburgh, so I couldn't tell you anything about that. I've seen tents under bridges before.

As far as using the bathroom goes, where do you want them to do it? It's a basic biological function. Are they choosing the alleys over public restrooms because there aren't any public restrooms or because, as you suggest, building owners/operators are making it, "As uncomfortable for them as possible," by not letting them use the restrooms?

The owner of the hotel I managed actually had two hotels and I'd sometimes fill in at the second, if needed. We were pretty vigilant about people trying to go to the stairs or elevator, but we would always let anyone come in to use the public restroom. What sort of person does one have to be not to let someone take a dump in relative comfort when you have the facilities? Also, there are/were no other public restrooms available (aside from one other hotel) in the entire Downtown area during these times. After 3:00a.m., crossing the bridge and going to one of the parlors wouldn't even be an option...and the one nearest this hotel would shoo you out anyway if you didn't look like you had any money.

Did people in that area shoot up in the restroom? I saw no evidence of it, if so, so they must have cleaned up after themselves. In fact, I don't remember ever having to clean up anything disgusting that would happen...best I could tell, they just did their biological function and left. They'd sometimes make a move to go to the elevator or stairway, but I'd cut them off and ask what room they were going to and for the name of the guest...they obviously had no idea and would leave without further incident.

Same thing with the hotel I managed in a city even bigger than that one, although, we weren't really in an area of town where you would expect to see homeless people.

Anyway, your last paragraph says it all. You seem to think that NYC and Portland, Oregon prefer it that way; you do not live in either of those places, so why do you care? NYC can have itself as far as I am concerned, I'll never be there again unless I have to go through that small part of it on the way to Connecticut. The entire Left Coast is a weird country, so I am very unlikely to ever visit California, Oregon and Washington...and I'm sure the residents of those states are just fine with me never going there.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
July 12th, 2021 at 9:44:38 AM permalink
missedhervee
Member since: Apr 23, 2021
Threads: 96
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To comply with my understanding of current law, cities cannot criminalize camping / living in public unless they have similar accomodations in place for homeless to go to.

Fine.

Select five or ten acres of open land away from downtown, hopefully in an open area without immediate residential areas nearby.

Put in porta potties, have water available with a paid supervisor on hand and call it good.

This would arguably satisfy the requirement of the court and should then free the hands of the city to physically remove the homeless from their myriad public encampments.

Have the cities hire people to then go around to where homeless camps are and with police assistance if needed forcibly take down the tents, tarps etc. and move it and its occupants to the designated area.

If they resist, advise they'll be arrested if they refuse to go willingly, and if they refuse then arrest them for violation of the no-camping city ordinance.
July 12th, 2021 at 9:53:54 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
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Quote: missedhervee


Have the cities hire people to then go around to where homeless camps .


Day late and a dollar short. Like closing the barn door after the horse has already escaped. Want some more cliches, I could go on and on
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
July 12th, 2021 at 9:56:10 AM permalink
Mission146
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Quote: missedhervee
To comply with my understanding of current law, cities cannot criminalize camping / living in public unless they have similar accomodations in place for homeless to go to.

Fine.

Select five or ten acres of open land away from downtown, hopefully in an open area without immediate residential areas nearby.

Put in porta potties, have water available with a paid supervisor on hand and call it good.

This would arguably satisfy the requirement of the court and should then free the hands of the city to physically remove the homeless from their myriad public encampments.

Have the cities hire people to then go around to where homeless camps are and with police assistance if needed forcibly take down the tents, tarps etc. and move it and its occupants to the designated area.

If they resist, advise they'll be arrested if they refuse to go willingly, and if they refuse then arrest them for violation of the no-camping city ordinance.


You don't count as a Conservative actually offering a viable solution to the problem because you are a fellow Libertarian.

I like all of those ideas. I would also add perhaps putting in port-a-johns (one at least every x square miles) in Downtown areas with accompanying signage. I think it's fair to say that one doesn't always have time for a five mile hike before the need to pop a squat becomes imminent.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
July 12th, 2021 at 10:00:20 AM permalink
Mission146
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Quote: Evenbob
Day late and a dollar short. Like closing the barn door after the horse has already escaped. Want some more cliches, I could go on and on


Just you stay mostly in your house (by admission) and continue to make posts that come off as complaints having to do with problems that do not seem like they should concern you.

Speaking of horses, MrV actually seems to have one in this race, so I'm interested in hearing his ideas.

You know, he has a dog in the fight.

I could go on and on.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
July 12th, 2021 at 11:13:25 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
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Quote: Mission146
I don't understand the notion of arresting them whatsoever. What the hell does that accomplish? First of all, you would have to pay police to foot patrol to even be on the lookout for such a thing, so that's staffing costs. Secondly, you increase the rate of police/civilian interactions which, by correlation, will increase the rate of violent police/civilian incidents. Third, these incidents are going to be taking place in densely populated areas which may have a more negative impact on innocent bystanders than the fact that they have to walk by and ignore the panhandlers. Fourth, jails cost money and would need to have increased staffing. Fifth and finally, you're going to end up feeding them whilst they are in jail anyway.


Arresting them is a last resort. They will avoid being arrested as they do not like living under rules and county jail has lots of rules. Plus they spend a couple days in the can and while in there someone will loot their tent or other living space, so they are going to avoid it.


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I've spent a good deal of time in Downtown big (or bigger) city areas and I have never seen a single panhandler instigate a violent confrontation with someone who refused to give them anything. I grant that being asked can be something of a hassle, especially for people who aren't necessarily as big as I am, but I've never witnessed anything happen to anyone who declined during daylight hours.


Pittsburgh is not all that bad at all compared to the west. Even Phoenix was way worse than Pittsburgh. The one day I was in SF I think I got panhandled at least half a dozen times. This kind of thing makes people not want to be in that area.

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As far as using the bathroom goes, where do you want them to do it? It's a basic biological function. Are they choosing the alleys over public restrooms because there aren't any public restrooms or because, as you suggest, building owners/operators are making it, "As uncomfortable for them as possible," by not letting them use the restrooms?


Here is the thing, building owners keep restrooms for their customers only. They do not want to clean up after street people who make a mess of the place. Starbucks did not have the guts to say this a couple years back when it came to the national news they had such a policy, though they had been using common sense locking the restrooms in problem places.

Some places are problems more than others. In Pittsburgh the McDonald's on Smithfield is right at the bus stop so it has problems. The manager will roust people who are loitering, big signs saying "20 minute limit" or whatever it is. I have seen the manager rousting people, in each case they did not at all look like a regular customer.

Are you saying if a homeless person has no place to go you will let them in your house or/and have no problem if they take a dump in front of your place? Where you can step in it before you get in your car?


Quote:
The owner of the hotel I managed actually had two hotels and I'd sometimes fill in at the second, if needed. We were pretty vigilant about people trying to go to the stairs or elevator, but we would always let anyone come in to use the public restroom. What sort of person does one have to be not to let someone take a dump in relative comfort when you have the facilities? Also, there are/were no other public restrooms available (aside from one other hotel) in the entire Downtown area during these times. After 3:00a.m., crossing the bridge and going to one of the parlors wouldn't even be an option...and the one nearest this hotel would shoo you out anyway if you didn't look like you had any money.

Did people in that area shoot up in the restroom? I saw no evidence of it, if so, so they must have cleaned up after themselves. In fact, I don't remember ever having to clean up anything disgusting that would happen...best I could tell, they just did their biological function and left. They'd sometimes make a move to go to the elevator or stairway, but I'd cut them off and ask what room they were going to and for the name of the guest...they obviously had no idea and would leave without further incident.


Some places have problems more than others. I briefly did night audit at a hotel a block from the convention center. As night audit nobody snuck past the desk to use the bathroom. One guy asked if he could sit and read, I had to tell him no. If he had just sat there I would never have noticed him, a life lesson I learned then. The woman who trained me told me how some woman came in daily and used the bathroom, not a guest or customer. One day they told her she was no longer welcome, she got huffy and said she would go elsewhere, as if she was a paying customer!

Some places will not mind the occasional person off the street using the restroom once. You have to be smart about it. But some places are homeless and/or tourist and have to say "NO" because it becomes a problem.


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Anyway, your last paragraph says it all. You seem to think that NYC and Portland, Oregon prefer it that way; you do not live in either of those places, so why do you care? NYC can have itself as far as I am concerned, I'll never be there again unless I have to go through that small part of it on the way to Connecticut. The entire Left Coast is a weird country, so I am very unlikely to ever visit California, Oregon and Washington...and I'm sure the residents of those states are just fine with me never going there.


Main reason I care is that "tolerance" spreads. Pittsburgh has had a crazy lefty mayor and the next one will be worse. As I go there on business regular and will probably eventually work downtown again I do not want to see it become Portland/SF east.

Time to get back to work for me. You want to have a conversation of why I think society is really collapsing over coffee or something stronger I will buy the first round at Meadows or Rivers.
The President is a fink.
July 12th, 2021 at 12:30:15 PM permalink
Mission146
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Quote: AZDuffman
Arresting them is a last resort. They will avoid being arrested as they do not like living under rules and county jail has lots of rules. Plus they spend a couple days in the can and while in there someone will loot their tent or other living space, so they are going to avoid it.


I guess that's fine as long as it's a last resort. It might arguably be better just to have basic services such that they really have no excuse for panhandling in the first place. If you had a (non-jail) place with free rooms, free basic beds and free (extremely basic) food, then they wouldn't really have a plausible excuse to go begging and I might be more in favor of the occasional arrest.

I know some of you guys aren't the biggest fans of straight handouts, but I can think of about 1,000 worse things that various levels of Government already spend money on. Actually, is jail technically a, 'Handout?' The only difference between this and jail would be that you can come and go as you please during most hours.

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Pittsburgh is not all that bad at all compared to the west. Even Phoenix was way worse than Pittsburgh. The one day I was in SF I think I got panhandled at least half a dozen times. This kind of thing makes people not want to be in that area.


Do you recall how many hours? I bet if I walked through Market Square back and forth for four hours I would be panhandled at least a half dozen times. That's just what happens. That said, Cleveland is WAY worse in the Downtown area.

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Here is the thing, building owners keep restrooms for their customers only. They do not want to clean up after street people who make a mess of the place. Starbucks did not have the guts to say this a couple years back when it came to the national news they had such a policy, though they had been using common sense locking the restrooms in problem places.


I understand that they intend for the restrooms to be for customers only, but if a business can't find enough compassion in them to prevent someone from maybe crapping in their pants, then I don't know what to say for that location. I certainly wouldn't patronize it.

Again, in my experience, nobody ever made any kind of a mess out of our public restrooms...though I admit that the area wasn't as bad. I think I had one guy fall asleep in there, ever. I pounded on the stall door and told him to move along and walk to the casino to try to find a place to hide and sleep. It's a public bathroom, not a public bedroom.

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Some places are problems more than others. In Pittsburgh the McDonald's on Smithfield is right at the bus stop so it has problems. The manager will roust people who are loitering, big signs saying "20 minute limit" or whatever it is. I have seen the manager rousting people, in each case they did not at all look like a regular customer.


HAD problems. It's closed. Maybe word spread that management was too much of an @$$4O!3 to let people use the restroom or stop for a rest. I'd figure that a lot of people around there ride the bus, so then many of the travelers (and other people) see management harassing folks and the people with money say, "Meh, I'll just go to Primanti's."

Of course, you can practically spit and hit the McDonald's on Wood, so maybe the market was just oversaturated.

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Are you saying if a homeless person has no place to go you will let them in your house or/and have no problem if they take a dump in front of your place? Where you can step in it before you get in your car?


Am I a business? Do I have a public restroom that I operate? I can say that, if a passerby asked to use the restroom, then I would let that person do it as long as they don't mind me first patting them down before they come in and also standing outside of the bathroom door until they are done.

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Some places have problems more than others. I briefly did night audit at a hotel a block from the convention center. As night audit nobody snuck past the desk to use the bathroom. One guy asked if he could sit and read, I had to tell him no. If he had just sat there I would never have noticed him, a life lesson I learned then. The woman who trained me told me how some woman came in daily and used the bathroom, not a guest or customer. One day they told her she was no longer welcome, she got huffy and said she would go elsewhere, as if she was a paying customer!


I'll be cautious, but I simply don't have it in me to condemn someone to crapping their pants or trying to hide somewhere and do it on the ground. I'm pretty cold, but I have more than zero humanity in me.

I would sometimes let people sit in the lobby if there, "Was weather," and they were waiting for this free bus to N.Y.C. that seemed to come around once a month, or so. I don't know what the deal was with that free bus, it wasn't a Greyhound, but the person would have a ticket. If they claimed to be waiting for that, then I would just ask to see their ticket and tell them not to go anywhere except the lobby or the bathroom. I'd also offer to make them some coffee. These people never seemed to have any money at all---to this day, I have no idea where the hell any of them came from or what the hell this bus was. I can't find anything on it online. I would have asked, but none of these people ever spoke much English.

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Some places will not mind the occasional person off the street using the restroom once. You have to be smart about it. But some places are homeless and/or tourist and have to say "NO" because it becomes a problem.


Well, yeah. I didn't say I would let a person come in on the hour, every hour. "Common sense," also comes into play in that there was one guy who seemed to stop in every night (that I was there), use the restroom and leave; he never made any kind of a mess whatsoever, so I wouldn't have said anything to that guy in any case.

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Main reason I care is that "tolerance" spreads. Pittsburgh has had a crazy lefty mayor and the next one will be worse. As I go there on business regular and will probably eventually work downtown again I do not want to see it become Portland/SF east.

Time to get back to work for me. You want to have a conversation of why I think society is really collapsing over coffee or something stronger I will buy the first round at Meadows or Rivers.


It is tolerance, no quotes. You're being tolerant of the fact that people have basic biological functions that they have to do. As it should be, in more orderly areas, a person can get in trouble for public defecation, so I'm inclined to offer people somewhere to go if I am pretty convinced that's all they are doing in there. If I am the operator for a business at a given time, then it seems socially responsible, to me.

Sounds good! We will meet up in the relatively near future, but I don't drink anything stronger than coffee these days.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
July 12th, 2021 at 1:18:19 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Mission146
I guess that's fine as long as it's a last resort. It might arguably be better just to have basic services such that they really have no excuse for panhandling in the first place. If you had a (non-jail) place with free rooms, free basic beds and free (extremely basic) food, then they wouldn't really have a plausible excuse to go begging and I might be more in favor of the occasional arrest.


So, you are advocating public flop houses? Want one next door to you?


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Do you recall how many hours? I bet if I walked through Market Square back and forth for four hours I would be panhandled at least a half dozen times. That's just what happens. That said, Cleveland is WAY worse in the Downtown area.


One day vacationing. If you subtract out the time at Alcatraz 6-8 hours. Trust me, I have never had so many bums ask me for money in one day.


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HAD problems. It's closed. Maybe word spread that management was too much of an @$$4O!3 to let people use the restroom or stop for a rest. I'd figure that a lot of people around there ride the bus, so then many of the travelers (and other people) see management harassing folks and the people with money say, "Meh, I'll just go to Primanti's."

Of course, you can practically spit and hit the McDonald's on Wood, so maybe the market was just oversaturated.


Haven't been in town since before the bug so I will take your word. Hard to believe it would go out of business because it was very busy. I do not think people saw and said that. Good people who eat at McDonald's do not want to do so among people loitering. The manager had a good eye and did not harass good customers. He could see who was potential problems. Ray Kroc avoided city locations for years because he did not want this kind of thing.


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Am I a business? Do I have a public restroom that I operate? I can say that, if a passerby asked to use the restroom, then I would let that person do it as long as they don't mind me first patting them down before they come in and also standing outside of the bathroom door until they are done.

I'll be cautious, but I simply don't have it in me to condemn someone to crapping their pants or trying to hide somewhere and do it on the ground. I'm pretty cold, but I have more than zero humanity in me.


Here is the thing. It is not "a person" in these cases, it is dozens of people all day in a downtown type area. And customers do not want to enter a business where scraggy types are coming and going all day as it feels unsafe, why the aforesaid MCD manager on Smithfield kept the loiterers out.


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Sounds good! We will meet up in the relatively near future, but I don't drink anything stronger than coffee these days.



Order what you like.
The President is a fink.
July 12th, 2021 at 1:40:47 PM permalink
Mission146
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Quote: AZDuffman
So, you are advocating public flop houses? Want one next door to you?


I'm basically just advocating for homeless shelters. I said, "Rooms," but I probably shouldn't have. I don't care if it's a room or not.

My point is, since it's going to be some Executive level of Government cracking down on this sort of behavior, and with the amounts of money that are already wasted on other things, then the Government should provide some sort of alternative that would justify an individual's arrest for not availing himself/herself of it.

Anyway, they wouldn't put one beside where I currently live. It's nowhere near any services that such people would find themselves needing, for one thing. If I presently lived in a Downtown apartment building, and the building next door was that, I wouldn't care very much.

And, even if I did have a preference against, it wouldn't matter. People live in the best place for them that their resources will allow. Honestly, I wouldn't live Downtown primarily because it would make major grocery shopping a PITA.

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One day vacationing. If you subtract out the time at Alcatraz 6-8 hours. Trust me, I have never had so many bums ask me for money in one day.


I believe it. That's just the cost of being down there.

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Haven't been in town since before the bug so I will take your word. Hard to believe it would go out of business because it was very busy. I do not think people saw and said that. Good people who eat at McDonald's do not want to do so among people loitering. The manager had a good eye and did not harass good customers. He could see who was potential problems. Ray Kroc avoided city locations for years because he did not want this kind of thing.


I want to say that location closed pre-COVID, but I don't think it was very long before that. Like I said, the location on Wood Street (nearby) seems to be humming right along.

I probably shouldn't speculate as to why it closed. Maybe it was a franchised location and the owner just got sick of it. According to reviews I found, the service was terrible (which one should probably expect for that location) and they were frequently out of many food items.

It's important to keep in mind that a place can have a long line and not necessarily be THAT busy. It could just be that the employees sucked and were very slow. In any event, people who are working down there can almost certainly afford to eat better than McDonald's anyway...especially considering those Downtown locations aren't particularly convenient. You'll probably get food faster at a sit down restaurant.

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Here is the thing. It is not "a person" in these cases, it is dozens of people all day in a downtown type area. And customers do not want to enter a business where scraggy types are coming and going all day as it feels unsafe, why the aforesaid MCD manager on Smithfield kept the loiterers out.


In that case, they don't have to enter it. I'd say that it probably would be dozens if you're the only place in town who lets people use the restroom without buying and word gets around. If every business with a, 'Public,' restroom allowed anyone to use it, then it would probably dilute the issue a bit.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman