Fetterman v Oz

Quote: Gandler

To the contrary, high abortion access correlates with more prosperous societies, this is the case across the world.

Its actually a pretty major issue, because lack of abortion influences everything from increased crime, to increased babies living in poverty, to lower life expectancy. Abortion is more than just a health decision that an individual should have (which is 100% is), it has massive societal influences. Even within America States that ban abortion are much less prosperous than States that do not....

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/26/1101570014/abortion-access-tends-to-lower-child-poverty-rates-economists-say

https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/class_gaps_unintended_pregnancy_release.pdf

https://www.forbes.com/sites/teresaghilarducci/2021/12/24/59-of-women-seeking-abortions-are-mothers-facing-high-poverty-risk/?sh=4ad65dde264f

States that restrict abortion are worse off, and countries that restrict abortion are worse off. Abortion access is a key indicator in gauging how a region fares.

Look at places with a high abortion rate and you see societies in decline. Russia is a perfect example. CA is an abortion-happy state and has among the highest poverty in the USA. You are right that abortion has massive societal influences. A high abortion rate is a sign of a society with little hope for its future. I can say that when you see pro-abortion people vs. pro-life people the former are far more angry and miserable than that later.

I will restate, that cheering on more abortions makes one a pathetic human being.

Quote: AZDuffman

Look at places with a high abortion rate and you see societies in decline. Russia is a perfect example. CA is an abortion-happy state and has among the highest poverty in the USA. You are right that abortion has massive societal influences. A high abortion rate is a sign of a society with little hope for its future. I can say that when you see pro-abortion people vs. pro-life people the former are far more angry and miserable than that later.

I will restate, that cheering on more abortions makes one a pathetic human being.

I am no defender of CA, but its in the top five richest States in the U.S. and has the highest State GDP (heck it has more GDP than virtually the entire Midwest combined). In fact all of the top five richest States are what you would probably call far left.... So their abortion policies don't seem to be turning them back.

As for Russia, Abortion in Russia has been increasingly been more strictly regulated since Putin (where before there were virtually no restrictions) so I am not sure the point on that front. If anything their abortion policy (since 2010s) is correlating with their increased marginalization on the global stage. Abortion is now banned in Russia after 12 weeks, this is crazy even by American standards (well now we have States with 100% legal abortion so we are giving the Russians a run for who has the most religious crazies....)

Nobody is cheering on abortions. People are cheering on the right to abortions.

However, the fact is simple restrictions on abortion lead to more crime and more poverty.

The poorest State in America (by poverty rates -your metric- ) is Mississippi, guess how many weeks you can get an abortion in Mississippi? (trick question its illegal now).

Legal Abortion= Better prosperity and higher levels of safety. (This is just a fact).
(We can get into more foreign countries with policies influenced by the Catholic Church and Islam, but that would just further tear apart your premise).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_GDP

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Russia#:~:text=Abortion%20in%20Russia%20is%20legal,special%20circumstances%20at%20later%20stages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_poverty_rate#:~:text=Poverty%20rates%20were%20highest%20in,%2C%20and%20Minnesota%20(9.33%25).

Quote: Gandler

I am no defender of CA, but its in the top five richest States in the U.S. and has the highest State GDP (heck it has more GDP than virtually the entire Midwest combined). In fact all of the top five richest States are what you would probably call far left.... So their abortion policies don't seem to be turning them back.

CA sits on the coast, the midwest does not. CA has a higher population than the midwest. And you are confusing correlation and causation. CA is basically a collapsed society. People are leaving the state for better states. The quality of life there is pretty bad.

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As for Russia, Abortion in Russia has been increasingly been more strictly regulated since Putin (where before there were virtually no restrictions) so I am not sure the point on that front. If anything their abortion policy (since 2010s) is correlating with their increased marginalization on the global stage. Abortion is now banned in Russia after 12 weeks, this is crazy even by American standards (well now we have States with 100% legal abortion so we are giving the Russians a run for who has the most religious crazies....)

Putin has seen his society collapsing, population decline. Russia has made much progress on the world stage since Putin took over. When he took power Russia could barely function. Its fighter pilots were allowed something like 8 hours training for the entire year. GDP was in freefall. Cutting the abortion rate is just one way to stop complete collapse. Complete collapse may and probably will happen this lifetime, but abortion restrictions are not the reason.

Quote:

Nobody is cheering on abortions. People are cheering on the right to abortions.

No, the left is cheering on abortions. Blue states are saying, "come here for an abortion vacation." Did not you yourself say abortion is the most important issue to you? Look at what you are saying below. You are saying the more abortions the better society is.

Quote:

However, the fact is simple restrictions on abortion lead to more crime and more poverty.

The poorest State in America (by poverty rates -your metric- ) is Mississippi, guess how many weeks you can get an abortion in Mississippi? (trick question its illegal now).

Legal Abortion= Better prosperity and higher levels of safety. (This is just a fact).
(We can get into more foreign countries with policies influenced by the Catholic Church and Islam, but that would just further tear apart your premise).

Quote: AZDuffman

CA sits on the coast, the midwest does not. CA has a higher population than the midwest. And you are confusing correlation and causation. CA is basically a collapsed society. People are leaving the state for better states. The quality of life there is pretty bad.



Putin has seen his society collapsing, population decline. Russia has made much progress on the world stage since Putin took over. When he took power Russia could barely function. Its fighter pilots were allowed something like 8 hours training for the entire year. GDP was in freefall. Cutting the abortion rate is just one way to stop complete collapse. Complete collapse may and probably will happen this lifetime, but abortion restrictions are not the reason.



No, the left is cheering on abortions. Blue states are saying, "come here for an abortion vacation." Did not you yourself say abortion is the most important issue to you? Look at what you are saying below. You are saying the more abortions the better society is.

I am not confusing correlation for causation, I am very clear that abortion access correlates with a better society (be that State or Nation), I am not saying abortion is the only factor or even a causing factor. But, it is a key indicator. When a country bans abortion it is almost certainly a totalitarian theocracy. Just like on a State level, the more religious the population, the more backward views they have on abortion (even if the views are not biblically based).

If you think Russia is progressing on the world stage you are just wrong, and I am not going to get back into that here.

There is no State advertising, "come here for an abortion vacation" , this is just fearmongering (if abortion is something to be fearful of). Though I am sure many anti-abortion States are secretly happy that impoverished residents are willing to cross State lines to get an abortion as it saves them money....

I am saying more access to abortions is better for society (which it is). As is more access to contraception. These are two things that directly correlate with a Nation's status, and these are two things that the Republican party is trying to ban (or heavily restrict). For a party that is about medical rights (allegedly) the Republican party spends a lot of time trying to ban products and procedures that they view as immoral (with no basis in science).

Quote: Gandler

I am not confusing correlation for causation, I am very clear that abortion access correlates with a better society (be that State or Nation), I am not saying abortion is the only factor or even a causing factor. But, it is a key indicator. When a country bans abortion it is almost certainly a totalitarian theocracy. Just like on a State level, the more religious the population, the more backward views they have on abortion (even if the views are not biblically based).

If you think Russia is progressing on the world stage you are just wrong, and I am not going to get back into that here.

There is no State advertising, "come here for an abortion vacation" , this is just fearmongering (if abortion is something to be fearful of). Though I am sure many anti-abortion States are secretly happy that impoverished residents are willing to cross State lines to get an abortion as it saves them money....

I am saying more access to abortions is better for society (which it is). As is more access to contraception. These are two things that directly correlate with a Nation's status, and these are two things that the Republican party is trying to ban (or heavily restrict). For a party that is about medical rights (allegedly) the Republican party spends a lot of time trying to ban products and procedures that they view as immoral (with no basis in science).

Keep denying reality, it seems to be working for you. If you think Russia has not progressed since the mid-1990s they you are living in your own world. That you call not wanting more abortions "backwards" says quite a bit.

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: Gandler

I am not confusing correlation for causation, I am very clear that abortion access correlates with a better society (be that State or Nation), I am not saying abortion is the only factor or even a causing factor. But, it is a key indicator. When a country bans abortion it is almost certainly a totalitarian theocracy. Just like on a State level, the more religious the population, the more backward views they have on abortion (even if the views are not biblically based).

If you think Russia is progressing on the world stage you are just wrong, and I am not going to get back into that here.

There is no State advertising, "come here for an abortion vacation" , this is just fearmongering (if abortion is something to be fearful of). Though I am sure many anti-abortion States are secretly happy that impoverished residents are willing to cross State lines to get an abortion as it saves them money....

I am saying more access to abortions is better for society (which it is). As is more access to contraception. These are two things that directly correlate with a Nation's status, and these are two things that the Republican party is trying to ban (or heavily restrict). For a party that is about medical rights (allegedly) the Republican party spends a lot of time trying to ban products and procedures that they view as immoral (with no basis in science).

Keep denying reality, it seems to be working for you. If you think Russia has not progressed since the mid-1990s they you are living in your own world. That you call not wanting more abortions "backwards" says quite a bit.

I am pretty clearly (and repeatedly) saying "access to abortion" which you are deliberately obfuscating at every tun. Not that I view having an abortion as a negative attribute, so I do not really find offense at the intended insult.

As for Russia, its military is probably at its most incompetent in decades. This is not up for debate. Their GDP is better than the 90s (but its tanking this year -and no, not to the same scale as other countries this year-), and they have more sanctions that ever in history. Russia is not the powerhouse that you desire it to be.

Quote: AZDuffman

Look at places with a high abortion rate and you see societies in decline. Russia is a perfect example. CA is an abortion-happy state and has among the highest poverty in the USA. You are right that abortion has massive societal influences. A high abortion rate is a sign of a society with little hope for its future. I can say that when you see pro-abortion people vs. pro-life people the former are far more angry and miserable than that later.

This is nonsense. The data actually shows the exact opposite. Sh!t-hole countries generally have the most restrictions on abortion.

I, for one, sincerely hope that the Russian sex workers whom Donny stuck his small, Toad-like penis in in 2013 were permitted by the regime to obtain safe abortions!

Quote: Gandler

I am pretty clearly (and repeatedly) saying "access to abortion" which you are deliberately obfuscating at every tun. Not that I view having an abortion as a negative attribute, so I do not really find offense at the intended insult.

Denying and proving my point in two sentences!

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As for Russia, its military is probably at its most incompetent in decades. This is not up for debate. Their GDP is better than the 90s (but its tanking this year -and no, not to the same scale as other countries this year-), and they have more sanctions that ever in history. Russia is not the powerhouse that you desire it to be.

You must not remember the immediate post-USSR Russia. It could barely move back then, the Ukraine invasion would not have been thinkable for them back then. They are still just an average military but with nukes, but back then they were nothing. As to GDP, Putin took over with a collapsed economy that was geared much to manufacturing due to the USSR obsession with heavy industry. He guided it to shift to resource extraction, which has been their path forward. Again, not the ideal but you have to play the hand you are dealt.

Quote: AZDuffman

Denying and proving my point in two sentences!

No, I am being quite clear and consistent. Access to abortion is good.

I am not cheering any abortion (nor am I shaming it), its a medical decision that an individual has with their doctor. I would never cheer somebody on to have an abortion anymore than I would shame somebody for having one, its a personal decision that should remain legal and private (if they wish, the also have a right to talk about it if they wish). I honestly do not understand why this is so difficult to convey, its a pretty simple position. Access to abortion is good.

I would be happy if the United States had fully legal abortion and a 0% abortion rate (because that would mean all pregnancies were intentional, consensual, desired, and healthy). The idea that I or "the left" wants a higher abortion rate is absurd. If anything, Republicans raise the rate by restricting medications and contraceptives that can prevent a pregnancy and restricting sex education.



(I edited out the Russian stuff because it moved past Russia's abortion policy, and I have nothing else to add on that related to that point).