Can children be groomed to be gay or Trans

Quote: kenarman

Your position seems to be that minors are able to make serious decisions with long lasting consequences for themselves. I assume then that you don't believe in Juvenile Court then since these same minors made their own decision to commit the crime and deserve to be treated like adults.

Does it look like I'm saying minors making decisions for themselves, when i said a minor, AND their parents AND a doctor making the decision? You even quoted it.

Quote: rxwine

You said she had underlying motives, so was suspect in saying she would commit suicide. You disqualifed words out of her own mouth. I just pointed out you need to do the same then. I'm sure she would rightly accuse you of trying to speak for her. So in turn, she can speak for you, and you would be disqualified as well.

Not about me at all.

I am disqualifying them because NPR is inherently biased and I don't put it past the producers to coach her to say certain things. If it makes you feel better, I don't believe anything that Fox News, or the people who appear on Fox News, says either.

Do you deny that it's a possibility that she's merely speculating that she would have committed suicide? Even if she's being honest, the event that would have precipitated her committing suicide did not happen; that being the case, it's a speculative statement even if she is telling the truth.

Quote: Mission146

I am disqualifying them because NPR is inherently biased and I don't put it past the producers to coach her to say certain things. If it makes you feel better, I don't believe anything that Fox News, or the people who appear on Fox News, says either.

Do you deny that it's a possibility that she's merely speculating that she would have committed suicide? Even if she's being honest, the event that would have precipitated her committing suicide did not happen; that being the case, it's a speculative statement even if she is telling the truth.

It's a speculative statement saying she absolutely wouldn't have committed suicide.

Quote: rxwine

It's a speculative statement saying she absolutely wouldn't have committed suicide.

I didn't say she wouldn't have. Maybe she would have. Maybe she wouldn't have.

One way or another, you're rolling the dice.

For those who genuinely believe they are doing the right thing, or want to, it's not an enviable position for a parent to be in to have to make a decision like that. I am not arguing that it is. I am not arguing that parents do not believe they are doing the right thing.

I am saying that there is an irreversible decision being made that, one way or another, will impact the child for the rest of their lives. That impact may be positive, or that impact may be negative.

In the meantime, there are adults who have made that decision for themselves and now regret it. There is no single solution that is perfect in all cases, so it's all a matter of having a difference of opinion as relates to, if we are going to collectively err, which we occasionally will one way or another, what side should we err on?

Given that there are adults who have made this decision, and have expressed regret, my tendency is to think it is not a decision that a person should have made for them by someone else.

Quote: Mission146

I didn't say she wouldn't have. Maybe she would have. Maybe she wouldn't have.

One way or another, you're rolling the dice.

For those who genuinely believe they are doing the right thing, or want to, it's not an enviable position for a parent to be in to have to make a decision like that. I am not arguing that it is. I am not arguing that parents do not believe they are doing the right thing.

I am saying that there is an irreversible decision being made that, one way or another, will impact the child for the rest of their lives. That impact may be positive, or that impact may be negative.

In the meantime, there are adults who have made that decision for themselves and now regret it. There is no single solution that is perfect in all cases, so it's all a matter of having a difference of opinion as relates to, if we are going to collectively err, which we occasionally will one way or another, what side should we err on?

Given that there are adults who have made this decision, and have expressed regret, my tendency is to think it is not a decision that a person should have made for them by someone else.

As I said, I would draw the same line at more rapid decision, that occurs without longer consultation without several parties involved. At least 3 but sometimes more. My requirement might seem too risky for you. Seems reasonable to me.

Quote: rxwine

As I said, I would draw the same line at more rapid decision, that occurs without longer consultation without several parties involved. At least 3 but sometimes more. My requirement might seem too risky for you. Seems reasonable to me.

Given that I have expressed my position, you already know that I disagree with that.

That being said, you can't deny me my right to opine, or favor some restrictions, because you also favor a de facto restriction.

Since we're not going to let parents and doctors put kids under the knife, same day as initial consultation, we are both proposing a restriction that results in less freedom (for the parents and doctors, anyway) than there otherwise might be.

Quote: Mission146

Given that I have expressed my position, you already know that I disagree with that.

That being said, you can't deny me my right to opine, or favor some restrictions, because you also favor a de facto restriction.

Since we're not going to let parents and doctors put kids under the knife, same day as initial consultation, we are both proposing a restriction that results in less freedom (for the parents and doctors, anyway) than there otherwise might be.

Sure I'm probably a tyrant to anyone who wants to make a decision right now, or this week or next month. At least I'm not trying to do what some anti-abortion people are doing, making up every obstacle I can to prevent it from ever happening at all under the pretense of "medical care".

Quote: rxwine

Sure I'm probably a tyrant to anyone who wants to make a decision right now, or this week or next month. At least I'm not trying to do what some anti-abortion people are doing, making up every obstacle I can to prevent it from ever happening at all under the pretense of "medical care".

What obstacle?

The obstacle that people otherwise live however they wish (or, however their parents wish) and manage to make it to the age of sixteen without killing themselves? That doesn't seem particularly restrictive.

Also, I think people are too dismissive of the idea of lifetime mental effects. The argument of physical change is for a lifetime seems to be the only thing that matters.

People often adjust to a condition over time, physical or mental, but that doesn't mean it's not a lifetime.

So the argument that only physical matters is also suspect. You can't always see mental effects.

Quote: Mission146

What obstacle?

The obstacle that people otherwise live however they wish (or, however their parents wish) and manage to make it to the age of sixteen without killing themselves? That doesn't seem particularly restrictive.

See, you keep implying you know what's best for them. I give them a choice. Not forcing them to do either.