Original Sin?

I think Christianity has us focus on the goodness in all of us. We are all painfully aware of our failures and sins, nobody needs to be convinced of this. Instead Christianity asks why is it that we feel a disconnect between who we are and who we want to be? It points out that you in your very nature are good and God, who created you, loves you like a perfect heavenly Father. Like a father He sees your goodness, even when we can't. Like a good father He wants to bring the best out of you and help you live a life of joy, peace, and fulfillment. Like a good father He wants to forgive us for our mistakes, which hurt Him as a loving parent as much as us, and He wants to help us to move past them and learn from them.

Christianity is all about convincing you that you are good and that your sins don't define you. You are defined rather by the Father's love for you and in how He sent His only begotten Son to show you the depths of His love and how the Holy Spirit continues to live in us and guide us and the Church He established on earth. It is a message of hope, freedom, peace, and most importantly love.

Quote: FrGamble

It is a message of hope, freedom, peace, and most importantly love.

That's what the talking points say, but in
reality it's about constantly reminding
us that we're 'fallen' and 'broken' and
that our sins weigh heavily on us. They
used to preach fire and brimstone and
eternal suffering, but people eventually
got tired of being beaten over the head
with it. So now it's a softer message; we're
still filthy fallen sinners, and we're still
going to hell forever, but that's more implied
than harped upon.

Thank god sin doesn't exist..

Do you or anyone really need to be convinced that they are fallen sinners? Does anyone not wish that they could be better in how they treat themselves and how they treat others? Does anyone not need the sense and feeling of forgiveness from past mistakes or present sorrows? Does anyone not know and have experienced that our world is not fair and that something is broken? Has anybody not been touched by the untimely death of a loved one, a disaster, crime, illness, or accident that has changed their lives?

Christianity need not preach about these things that it alone has the answer for. People feel them without anyone needing to bring it up. You do a great disservice to mankind and show a disrespect for the reality of life by denying that there is not suffering, injustice, and evil in our world - all of which is the fruit of sin. I'd much rather you work on trying to come up with a secular answer to the problems of humanity than trying to attack a worldview and philosophy that has served to alleviate the sufferings and grant freedom from sin for a vast amount of people for thousands of years.

Quote: FrGamble

Do you or anyone really need to be convinced that they are fallen sinners?

Must be, because I'm convinced people
who think sin exists, that we're so important
that we can offend a god, are more than a
little narcissistic. How man, who until very
recently, was squatting in the bushes with
the animals, relieving himself, can go from
that, to the apple of some gods eye, is
an astounding leap.

Quote:

I'd much rather you work on trying to come up with a secular answer to the problems of humanity .

I don't have an opinion on the problems of
humanity. One persons problem is often
another persons livlihood. I'm not getting
involved in that.

Quote: Evenbob

I don't have an opinion on the problems of
humanity. One persons problem is often
another persons livlihood. I'm not getting
involved in that.

So you're okay with slavery as long as someone is making a profit by it?

Quote: FrGamble

So you're okay with slavery as long as someone is making a profit by it?

Slavery is good subject. People have been enslaved
since the dawn of time. Yet no god in any culture
has ever once spoken against it. It's probably the
worst moral crime there is, taking a person, and
sometimes a whole peoples freedom away from
them, sometimes for countless generations.

Religious people claim this is a moral universe.
God created it so he could test us. Yet it's
obviously no such thing. It's a physical universe
with tons of physical laws. And no moral laws
whatever, unless they're invented by us. How
pitiful is that?

Because if this was a moral universe, and there
was a moral god, any of the gods, they surely
would have spoken out about the atrocity of
slavery. But none of them ever did.

Doesn't that bother you on some level? Can
you leave your dogma and doctrine aside
for just long enough to scratch your and
ask, what the is up with that. Obviously god
condones slavery, because if you're not
part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
And the god of every religion has never been
part of the slavery solution. Because god doesn't
exist.

I do think the egregious nature of slavery shows clearly the reality of sin. God does speak out against slavery and God gives us a universal objective moral norm that taking away someone's freedom without cause, a freedom God has given, is an evil act. Even if God doesn't speak about against slavery, which He does, it is ingrained in us that this is a bad thing.

However, the fact that slavery exists even still today does make me scratch my head and ask what is up with that. A good answer came to me through this great song by Matthew West. Give it a listen and I think you will enjoy.

Quote: FrGamble

God does speak out against slavery

We've been down this road before, lets
not do it again. No god in any religion
has outright damned and condemned
slavery and you know it. Why?

Because human rights were never an
issue when most religious texts were
written. Slavery was a way of life, all
successful economies depended on
it. For somebody to say their god
condemns it, they would be slitting
their own throats as far as a religion
goes. Always follow the money, even
in religion, it never lies. Even Jesus,
the great moral arbiter, had nothing
to say against slavery. He wasn't
stupid..

Okay, we don't need to go down that path again and discuss how slavery was different than we conceive it today, etc., etc.

So let's revisit you comment that started us going that way. What did you mean when you said:

Quote: Evenbob

I don't have an opinion on the problems of
humanity. One persons problem is often
another persons livlihood. I'm not getting
involved in that.

Quote: FrGamble

So let's revisit you comment that started us going that way. What did you mean when you said:

I love how Christians always gloss over the
slavery issue with platitudes like "it was
a different slavery back then". There was
a lot of it, and it took on every form
imaginable.

I'm curious about something. Crucifixion
was the norm for punishment in Jesus time.
He had to see it all his life. Not every day,
but certainly with regularity. The Romans
would sometimes hang a dozen people on
crosses in a field. What did Jesus think of
all this public killing.

The vast majority of those crucified were
runaway slaves. There were executed as a
warning to other slaves not to run away.
The Romans were big on enslaving people,
there was a lot of work to be done.

It's curious that Jesus had to know most of
those on crosses were slaves. Yet he said
nothing about it. Didn't condemn it, didn't
preach against it. Why? Because to him,
and everybody else, slavery of all kinds was
a socially accepted practice, and runaway
slaves should be dealt with. Human rights
didn't exist, and if Jesus was god, they
darn well should have. But of course Jesus
was just a common Jew, a reformed rabbi,
that's all.

Quote:

Quote: Evenbob
I don't have an opinion on the problems of
humanity. One persons problem is often
another persons livlihood. I'm not getting
involved in that.

Look at Cuba. The gov't does everything for
the people, even feeds them. For a long time
a Cuban couldn't even have his own garden
next to his house to grow veggies for his
family. The gov't was afraid he would sell some
to his neighbor and they would not collect a
tax on it. If I was a Cuban I would have hated
this. But I don't live there, it's not up to me
to do anything. If the Cubans don't like it, it's
their gov't and it's up to them to do something.
I's none of my business.