Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

What do you think Jesus gained?

“Jesus would have known that after a period of intense pain, fear and powerlessness, the outcome was really joyful, and ultimately wonderful. He lost nothing, in fact, we could say he gained. Jesus doesn’t die, it isn’t death if you are raised two days later. No real loss, no end, a temporary blip perhaps, but a return to something better, another gain."

The Jesus story as it's told
doesn't match up to the
importance that Xtions put on
it. They want to make Jesus
dying some epic sacrificial
thing, and it just doesn't
measure up. It's lacking a
real sacrifice. The most it can
be called is a loving act, but
so what, there are countless
loving acts, you don't build
religions around them. Claiming
that Jesus sacrificed something
particularly incredible, simply
makes no sense.

"Crucifixion is certainly horrible, but there are plenty of people who die more horrible, more protracted deaths every day. And who stay dead. And who’s plans and hopes and goals and personality die with them. Who don’t get to raise up two days later, fulfill their goals, ultimately defeat evil and be seated at the right hand of God for all eternity."

I don't know what you are not understanding. What are you talking about. You seem to think that God who came to save us gained something, what could God be lacking? Do you think when He ascended after the Resurrection He was somehow more perfect or had more of anything? If you do then you don't understand God.

As you said it was a loving act. What is more of a loving act than sacrifice? Why do you think that because He rose from the dead that it makes the sacrifice null? Again if someone recovers from their war injuries did they not really sacrifice anything? I don't think you are thinking clearly. What about the simple fact of God becoming man? That in itself might be the sacrifice you seem to be asking for, it is forever. Think about it for a second and I think you will understand.

Quote: FrGamble

What about the simple fact of God becoming man? That in itself might be the sacrifice you seem to be asking for, it is forever. .

Very pagan of you. Greek and Roman
mythology is full of gods that took on
human form, Egyptian mythology also.
This was a very common belief in
Jesus time. So now you're claiming
this was the Jesus/god sacrifice,
the incarnation? So the birth of
Jesus was the big thing, not the death?
Jesus is just another incarnated god like
all those before him in the myths?

Is that the story the Church is putting
out? Here's what I'm learning in trying
to find out what the big sacrifice was
that god/Jesus made that supposedly
'saved' us all. Nobody knows, it's a divine
'mystery'. It's a paradox, it can't be explained,
like the trinity is a mystery. This is known
in legal terms as 'evasion'. You can't
answer the question so you evade it.

You don't have an answer because most
of this 'died for our sins' nonsense was
made up long after Jesus died. There
was a big 'sacrifice' but nobody can say
what that was. They all have a theory,
but they say just accept it as a 'mystery'.

No can do..

Wow, talk about evasion? In this one post you made unsubstantiated historical claims that I think you know is not true, or at least you should. You twist my words into a straw man argument. And you ignore dealing with the questions I asked you about your strange notion of sacrifice requiring someone to die or be tortured forever.

It is not a myth or a mystery. God took on human flesh and suffered and died to free us from the consequences of our sins. He who knew no sin bore our punishment to set us free. Maybe in your strange way of thinking you don't call this a sacrifice, but then again you have shown over and over that when you know you are wrong you like to twist words, make stuff up, purposely insult, and avoid questions so you yourself are a mystery to me.

Look you said it was a loving act. Since I view sacrifice as the greatest act of love. Why don't we just agree that we differ in our definition of sacrifice and both call the passion and death of Jesus a loving act.

Quote: FrGamble

Why don't we just agree that we differ in our definition of sacrifice

That's funny. I keep reading that
Xtions do NOT like this subject
and try anything to get out of
having it. I remember 45 years
ago they got mad at me for
even bringing it up in the group.

I read a really lonnnng blog entry
on this last night, with a lot of
great intellectual, well thought out
comments. No name calling, no
insults, just a scholarly discussion
on the what the sacrifice of Jesus
was.

After an hour of reading, they were
no closer to it than they were at
the start. Now you want to say nobody
but the Vatican knows the meaning
of the word 'sacrifice'. Yeah, no, people
pretty much know what it means.

Even Ed the ex priest said he was in
seminary for 8 years, an active priest
for 5 years, and he just accepted the
sacrifice model like everybody around
him. It wasn't discussed in depth, it
was taken for granted. It's when you
dissect it, and examine it in detail,
that's where the problems begin.

Xtions don't want to talk about it, I
understand that totally. If there
was a sacrifice, it's a mystery as to
what it was. But it sounds really
good, it plays really well. I've seen
women in church break down
sobbing over the 'sacrifice' of
Jesus. But it's like one of the
commenters said on the blog,
who wouldn't let themselves be
hung on the cross if they knew
it would give them eternal life.

Quote: Evenbob

But it's like one of the
commenters said on the blog,
who wouldn't let themselves be
hung on the cross if they knew
it would give them eternal life.

Bob listen to what you are writing here. Just stop; it is embarrassing to read this from someone who claims to know Christianity so well. Did you just suggest that Jesus hung on the cross to give himself eternal life?!? Need I remind you of the fundamental teaching of Christianity that Jesus Christ is true God and true man. You keep saying or thinking that Jesus can gain something by hanging on the cross so therefore it is not a sacrifice. What can God gain? What can the almighty, perfect, eternal, creator of all things gain by suffering and dying on the cross? God by definition cannot gain anything, it is only us who have to gain from Christ's sacrifice.

Would you agree that if someone does something for someone without gaining anything in return that would be sacrificial? Would you agree that if God became man, suffered, died, and rose from the dead gaining nothing for Himself (an impossibility) so that all human beings could enjoy eternal life in Heaven that this would be a sacrifice? Do you still at least think it is a loving act?

By the way I continue to have serious doubts about Ed and his journey to the priesthood and formation. What seminary does not have at least a few semester courses on soteriology? The Sacrifice of Christ is the big topic in the year long in depth course on the Synoptic Gospels and also in the course on the Gospel of John. It is covered in Fundamental Theology. I find it hard to believe that if Ed went to seminary he would ever tell you that it was no discussed in depth. Something is very fishy about that.

Quote: FrGamble

Did you just suggest that Jesus hung on the cross to give himself eternal life?!?

Did I say that? Did the comment say that?
You read way too much into everything.

So what do you think Jesus gained by His passion and death?

Quote: FrGamble

I find it hard to believe that if Ed went to seminary he would ever tell you that it was no discussed in depth..

It was discussed like religion is
discussed in a comparative religion
class in a Xtion college. My wife
went to a well known such college
and even she said the course was
a joke. You learned the basics
of the other religions, but always
from the standpoint of how they compared
so poorly to the 'truth' of Xtionity.

That's how sacrifice was discussed in
seminary in the 50's when Ed was
there. I'm sure it's much different
now, they tear it apart surgically
and examine every facet of it so
a priest understands exactly what
the sacrifice was and how it worked.

But wait, if that's true, why can't you
give a good definition of it here. The
best you've got is nobody but the Church
understands the sacrifice. You understand
it so well you can't explain it?

The problem is, you're dealing with an
all seeing all knowing all everything to
everybody god. He can't make a sacrifice
being that kind of god, it's impossible.
He's perfect in every way. And that's the
fly in the ointment that makes this not
work. Even if he comes to earth as a man,
he still knows the future in every detail, as
it says Jesus did.

"Jesus knew the future. Being God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9) and because He is outside of time yet also within it being a man, He knew the future because He had ordained it (Ephesians 1:11)"

If you know the future in detail,
there can't be sacrifice. You know
what's coming, you're just playing
your ordained part in it. You have
no choice, it's a done deal. Do you
understand? Do you see that?