Original Sin?

Quote: Evenbob

That's how sacrifice was discussed in
seminary in the 50's when Ed was
there.

I don't think so. Many of the same classes were taught in the 50's as today. Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

Quote:

But wait, if that's true, why can't you
give a good definition of it here.

I think it is you who are having a hard time with the definition of sacrifice. You seem to think that something is not a sacrifice unless you don't know what is going to happen and only if you die or suffer for eternity. You keep avoiding the questions about if something is a sacrifice if you heal from it? Is it also not a sacrifice if you know you are going to be okay but you do something sacrificial for another person or every human being?

One of the reasons I asked you to read Psalm 22 is to understand that even though in His divinity Christ knew and had complete trust that the Father's Will would lead to Resurrection and salvation for the whole human race, in His humanity Jesus endured the suffering and death like any of us would quoting a psalm of doubt and ultimate hope in God.

Quote:

The best you've got is nobody but the Church
understands the sacrifice.

When have I ever said anything remotely close to this nonsense? Is that what you want me to say and are frustrated that I won't?

Quote:

He can't make a sacrifice
being that kind of god, it's impossible.
He's perfect in every way...
If you know the future in detail,
there can't be sacrifice.

I don't understand why you say this? Why can't you make a sacrifice if you know the future? Is it not a sacrifice to do something for another that helps them and you know you will gain nothing from it? Is it not a sacrifice to endure some pain and suffering for someone even though you know you will be okay? Have you ever given blood before?

Quote: FrGamble

Why can't you make a sacrifice if you know the future?

Because if you know the detail
of the future, every detail, you
have no choice in what you'll
do. The sacrifice is just part of
the script that you have no
choice in fulfilling. Here's a
good example that I'm sure
you will say is awful, like you
always do.

A woman gets her degree and
sacrifices a promising career to
raise a family. It's a crapshoot
for her, she has no idea her
family will turn out as she hopes.
She may be full of regret for
the rest of her life over the
sacrifice she made.

Lets say the same woman knows
the future. Every detail of it. She
knows she'll give up a career
for a family and knows exactly
how it works out. She'll never
have to make a sacrifice because
she knows she has no choice in
the coming events. She gave nothing
up because there was never any
chance of her doing anything else.
All she could do is go along with
what was predestined.

Sacrifice always involves choice. You
always have the option to back out.
God/Jesus had no option, none. So where
is the sacrifice. It does not and cannot
exist in that scenario.

You can make it exist by claiming Jesus
had no idea what was in the future, it
could go either way. But that ship has
sailed, Jesus knew the future in detail,
scripture makes that crystal clear.

Actually Scripture doesn't make it crystal clear as I've tried to point out to you multiple times. Remember that Jesus is true God and true man.

However, regardless I think you are making a jump from knowing how things will turn out to a lack of freedom to make a choice. If the woman in your example knows that starting a family will be the best for her she still has to make the choice to go through childbirth, raise children and the huge sacrifices that requires, the cost of doing this and the sacrifice of living frugually and simply for many years to make it work. The sacrifice of a marriage relationship which is not always easy. God was not forced to do what He did. Even if in His divinity He knew that He would conquer death in the Resurrection it still required the free choice to sacrifice through the passion and death. Those scars He showed His disciples after the Resurrection don't go away, they are forever. So I do agree that sacrifice requires a free choice. I just don't know why you think knowing the outcome of your free choice means that you have to make it and you have no option.

Quote: FrGamble

Actually Scripture doesn't make it crystal clear .

"According to the Gospels, from Peter’s confession at Caesarea Philippi onward, Jesus warned his disciples of his impending fate.
Three times he accurately predicts that the Son of Man will suffer and die and then rise again (Mark 8:31–32, par.; 9:31, par.; 10:33, par.)"

Sounds like he knew the future to
me. Everywhere I look they say he
was god, he knew what would happen
to him in detail. Are you saying he
didn't know?

No I'm saying that even if He knew it was still a free choice that involved great sacrifice. Read the accounts of the Garden in Gethsemane. I'm also saying that knowing the future doesn't negate the suffering or sacrifice one freely chooses to undergo.

Quote: FrGamble

No I'm saying that even if He knew it was still a free choice .

Not possible. If he knew the future
it was set in stone, there was no
choice in the present to be made.
No sacrifice, because sacrifice
always has to involve choice. If
you know you must do something
and there is zero choice in it,
you're giving up nothing because
it's a done deal, there is no other
way to go. Jesus dying was a done
deal in the myth, he marched
forward and did it, no choice or
sacrifice involved. He was just
playing his part in a drama that
he already knew every detail of.

If you say Jesus knew a possible future,
then he was no different than us. We
all know possible futures.

Knowing you must do something does not mean you have to do it. Jesus was like us, remember true man? He had a choice, read the Garden of Getheseme account. God freely chose to save us and according to you that means it was indeed a sacrifice.

Quote: Evenbob

"Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?"

I laughed out loud when I heard this quote from the film Becket in the news.

It wasn't just from the movie, but it was attributed to Henry II in 1170.

Henry II performed a public act of penance on 12 July 1174 at Canterbury, when he publicly confessed his sins, and then allowed each bishop present, including Foliot, to give him five blows from a rod, then each of the 80 monks of Canterbury Cathedral gave the king three blows. The king then offered gifts to Becket's shrine and spent a vigil at Becket's tomb.

Quote: FrGamble

Knowing you must do something does not mean you have to do it. .

You don't understand. If you know the
details of the future, you cannot change
them. They are what happens. If you
know them like god is supposed to know
them, they are set in stone. All choice
disappears. If what you see in the future
MIGHT happen, you're doing what anybody
can do, speculating.

Jesus knew every detail of what would happen,
there was no choice involved. Sacrifice cannot
exist without choice.

Okay, no sacrifice without choice, I think we have found common ground on that. Let me ask you if God has set what the future will be out of the infinite possibilities of what could happen, is that a free choice? What I mean is that if God knows every detail, then didn't He freely chose each of those details? You don't think God was forced to do anything do you?