In The News Today...

Quote: Face

I'm not talking about you. Nor rxwine or boymimbo, for that matter. I'm talking pols. Up there, it's all or nothing. Show me where I'm wrong.

I'm glad you especially asked. I can just be normal and teach, as opposed to ranting like a maniac.

What could have prevented it, and I mean to emphasize that so that we understand that even the best efforts cannot prevent all, but what could have and then didn't is why guys like AZD and me seem to be so unreasonable with our adamant "Shall not be infringed" rhetoric. This guy was a known entity. There were signs, signs which were reported under the See Something, Say Something effort. There were records from the school documenting anti-social behavior, including increasing punishment up to what I believe was expulsion, if not at least a pre-emptive move out of that district, and if I'm not mistaken, even notification to the FBI about his erratic behavior and possession and seeming obsession with weapons. It's just no one told the FBI in Miami. And because of that, what already should have resulted in some sort of intervention was not, and now we have another one.

NO EFFORT is being given anywhere but restriction. Just waiting for one side to finally say "This is f#$%ing ridiculous" and hopefully calling out and culling the extremists on both sides.

Face, I agree with you. But since he had not committed a crime, what would the FBI had done? Knock on his door and say, "hey hey, what's up, gotta a lot of guns there!!!" Apparently there is nothing wrong with being obsessive with weapons in Florida. If a Florida residence wants to amass 40 AR-15s over a year and has the money and time to wait out the waiting period, he or she can. Same is true in many states. Even two weeks ago the shooter told the family he was living with that he was very happy and that he was working.

And that's the whole freaking point! Statistically, a small portion of the population is going to lose it, mentally. If they own a gun, they become a ticking time bomb. You're a ticking time bomb, Face. Anyone with a personal killing device is. The greater the power of that weapon, the bigger the bomb. And you, Face, have some pretty good firepower, and the only thing keeping the population of your local village in New York safe IS YOUR SANITY and trusting that YOU WILL NOT HAVE UNCHECKED ANGER. Because given the weaponry that you have, there's a good probably that you will able to wreak a relatively large amount of carnage before the 5-0 or good Samaritan takes you out. The common thing about all of the mass murder that has been committed is that they had excellent firepower and had a good period of time to enact mass death before getting caught.

If my clock strikes and I develop a mental illness that involves a destructive delusion or suicidal tendencies or I get a sudden burst of prolonged anger, the only weapon of mass destruction I have is a vehicle, and the worst I can do is drive it through a crowd of people and kill a few and injure many more, and that's if I keep it together long enough to find a population of innocents to kill. But that doesn't happen. All of the mass vehicular killings have been motivated by political motives. So, the 2nd worse weapon I have is a knife, and the third worse my hands -- the best I can do there is kill my wife and whomever else is living in my house. Now, if I own an AR-45, I can easily mail order some magazines and a bump stock, walk to my local shopping mall, church, casino, place of employment, school, or political demonstration and enact mass destruction. The precise reason I don't own a gun is because the odds of me developing a mental illness is not zero. The odds of me getting a sudden burst of prolonged anger is not zero. And in aggregate, when you take the community as a whole, the odds of someone doing an act of mass destructive becomes inevitable.

The question is, what is the point where we accept that the protecting the population of ticking time bombs out there surpasses the need for people to own massive destructive power safely.

Add to that the fact that mental health services for the middle class and poor is getting more and more out of reach due to cost, and the number of ticking time bombs start to reach proportions where that meter of protecting the population becomes more and more important than the purpose and meaning of the 2nd Amendment.

So, you want my answer: free and mandatory education programs paid for by the NRA and gun owner consortium. You get the training certificate then you can take the gun home. Maybe you will lock the weapon up (especially if you have children at home) or keep it unloaded. Add to that initial and periodic mental health checks for high capacity gun owners, and an evaluation (by law) for whenever anyone touches the mental health system and certainly those charged with any violent crime (assault or worse) should have their guns taken away (and the ability to own one). At least that will take away some of the ticking time bombs out there. And heck, ya, get rid of the ability for high capacity magazines, bump stocks and anything that increases the killing power of those machines beyond what is necessary for hunting and self-defense. And yeah, I know all of that means restriction and regulation, but you can still own your six-shooter.

And of course, increase the accessibility and availability of mental health programs and drug addiction programs to lift people out of despair and reduce the number of ticking time bombs.

FACE, if I lived where you live, what guns would I be legally allowed and why wouldn't that be sufficient?

Quote: rxwine

FACE, if I lived where you live, what guns would I be legally allowed and why wouldn't that be sufficient?

O man,.... that's become a really hard question to answer. Specifically because of the "assault rifle" restrictions.

I think the best way to look at it from a knowledge standpoint would to not focus on "types" and rather focus on "accessories". Sort of like the gun version of trim levels for cars. Just about any "type" is legal, from literal type, like shotgun vs pistol vs rifle, to action type, like pump vs lever vs semi. Even the misnamed "assault rifle" is legal here; it's the accessories and gadgets that make most illegal.

So first off, anything with an "accessory" or "trim level" that allows it to hold more than 10rds is illegal. Any rifle or pistol which has a standard cap exceeding it (which probably most do) must either have low-cap magazines substituted, or where the mag is internal, a non-removable block must be in place. This limit was temporarily dropped to 7rds, but said limit was determined to be "arbitrary and capricious" and was overturned.

There are further mods, parts and accessories that muck up the game, ranging from tacti-cool, mall ninja s#$% to reasonable gunner assistants. Currently, last I checked, there was a "2 piece" requirement for any gun to be labeled an "assault weapon", one of which there being a removable magazine. The removable magazine is about as standard an item that comes on a gun, so we're already pretty much at the limit. Further accessories include a forward grip, a muzzle break, suppressor / silencer, and folding / collapsible stocks. A forward grip assists with stability. A muzzle break lessens recoil. A suppressor makes things quieter, and a folding stock makes it easier to carry. And these are the things which suddenly are worth tossing felony charges around for. Not a single one makes a round faster, bigger, more deadly, increases the rate of fire, or make the gun less detectable or traceable, with the exception that a silencer might have made things a little more sticky in a Vegas type scenario. Yet we're talking Class D felonies.

So I guess the answer to your question is "any". I could go out and get my coveted MG-42 if I wanted. It just couldn't have the muzzle break, or the forward grip, or the select fire capability. AK - 47? Sure, so long as it's stripped bare and semi auto only with a 10rd mag, plus as-of-yet non-transferable registration. .50cal BMG? Could buy one and start stopping trucks on the interstate today, if you so choose. Just don't put a grip on my .22 or you're looking at 3-7yrs.

Why it's not sufficient... for me it's not too much about that. In a SHTF scenario, I don't much suspect a muzzle break is gonna be the difference between me living and me dying. The ammo cap does have play, as it's one of the key factors in any sort of gun defense - don't run out. And while I can get the opposition and you're not wrong, all I can say is animal threats are real, and widespread disasters and civil uprisings happen. But in the end, it's mostly stupidity that I rail against. A grip allows me to shoot, now that I am compromised in my shooting shoulder. But it now makes me a felon, all so someone, somewhere could say "Yay! We did something!", even though that something has not one single thing to do with any of this.

And not for nothin', but that re-register s#$% I just bitched about? That's part of the SAFEAct. Now our licenses expire, now you must re-register every 5 years. Things is, it's completely up to you to remember. No mass bulletin, no notice in the mail a la DMV registration, nothing. THEN, if you so happen to miss, forget, be indisposed, whatever, not only are you instantly committing at least one but what is more likely MULTIPLE weapons offenses at the turn of the calendar when you expire, but your stuff is REVOKED as opposed to merely suspended, resulting in complete forfeiture of all pieces plus erasure of all licensing, requiring you to start all over again with, a-ha!, newly minted weapon charges! Rendering you reapplication into gunner hood an easy denial.

Again, not for nothin',... I get you's guys. I get my "common man" opposition. But these f#$%s aren't in it for the greater good. This is whence my "Ain't no compromise" lamentations stem.

Quote: beachbumbabs

not among those I would restrict. Utility shotgun for many purposes....5+1 to 8+1 is acceptably low capacity before forced reload. I freely admit my ignorance on specific models, though, so if there's a trick barrel magazine or other thing, I won't know it. It does seem capable of grenade launching, but where doe Joe Mass Murderer get those? Take away that source if available to the public.

No you are not ignorant, and I'm not clever enough to set a trap. I posted that 12 gauge because it has been used in several wars by our military, still is. But I had to look past my first search, they all had handles and such to make them look more assault rifle-ee. That is just a Mossberg 12 gauge pump action rifle, that our troops still use today, that you can get at any gun store or WM around. It is very capable of assault. I have one similar, no big deal except the extended mag, that I pulled the plug out of.

It is indeed horrible, these mass killings using the AR's in crowds, but 8 rounds of #4 buckshot into an audience, would buy a creep enough time to reload, especially with a six shooter in her belt. At least with one bullet at a time, the shooter had to hit each target with one. Number 4 buck has at least 21 pellets per trigger pull, each quite capable of killing, without even having to aim, spray and pray. A killer could feasibly drop thirty plus targets, per magazine, without much difficulty. If someone wants to inflict maximum horror, they will rent a Ryder truck and fill it with drums of diesel.

I don't own anything really considered assault except a 1960's .308 with a 4-1 mag, the extended mags are available, up to 30 rd. With an old wooden stock used for pounding brush out of the way, it is a hunting rifle, attach the extended mag and it's an assault rifle. Without extended cap mags, stripper clips will do.

It is possible to kill many more in a crowd situation, by making them stampede. That's why I posed the question a few times about how many were trampled in Vegas, versus how many shot or wounded. When will the first 300 dollar drone be converted to carry a molitav cocktail over an event, and cause a stampede that kills hundreds?

I don't believe that if all your suggestions passed tomorrow, the anti gunners will stop, until the gangs, police or cartels have power in large sections of city's.

Take away fast shooting rifles, but that won't stop the people on SSRI's, with the willpower to cause mass death that can afford a can of gas and a match.

added ; Fiocchi 12 gauge 2 3/4 #4 buck, 27 pellets each, 1325 fps, each pellet travelling faster than a .22.

Quote: boymimbo

. You're a ticking time bomb, Face.

We all are.

Quote: boymimbo

Why? He was talking rates of death/injury for gun owners vs drivers. Why would exclude a group of people because they took their own life with a gun? To suit your narrative? Are people who take their own life not gun owners?

Because a suicide is not "gun violence." It is a suicide. Putting them in suits the anti-gunner narrative.

It has also been shown that the few highest violence cities like Baltimore, Chicago, and New Orleans to name a few really skew the numbers. Do something about the violence there and you can really drop the rate. Except in Baltimore for one they made it harder for the cops, leading to more gun violence.

I just hears a very interesting fact/idea. A high school student is, wait for it, almost 200 times more likely to commit suicide than to die of a shooting at a school! Yet we are hearing how we need to ban guns and have armed guards at our schools. And these shooters tend to be committing suicide by cop (this latest one failed there.) We are probably better at looking how the schools are driving our kids to this behavior than grabbing guns.

As was said before, this last guy was identified in every possible way. Cops and FBI dropped the ball.

Quote: AZDuffman

Cops and FBI dropped the ball.

As often happens when cops are unrestrained by an armed populace. Perhaps they are too busy trying to arrest nine year old girls for failing to answer a jury duty summons, or making a counterfeiting arrest over a two dollar bill, or handcuffing a seven year old boy whose teacher didn't like his table manners, or making arrests concerning overdue library books.

You people all place way too high a value on human life. Yes, 17 children were murdered heinously in florida but there were around 11,000 babies born on that same day in the U.S. In 2016 about 18,000 murders occurred in the U.S. but there were 4,000,000 births.

My point is that we are doing a pretty good job replacing the killed.

Quote: Fleastiff

As often happens when cops are unrestrained by an armed populace. Perhaps they are too busy trying to arrest nine year old girls for failing to answer a jury duty summons, or making a counterfeiting arrest over a two dollar bill, or handcuffing a seven year old boy whose teacher didn't like his table manners, or making arrests concerning overdue library books.

I'll say again what I said elsewhere. Just looks like no desire to do good, old-school police work. Drop by. Say Hi. Explain the problem. Explain they will be watching. Watch.

There is always the house or two around that the cops know is trouble. Often if something happens they drive right there. And they are usually right. A guy with the rep this guy had you would think the local cops would have known about him.

Quote: AZDuffman

Because a suicide is not "gun violence." It is a suicide. .

If you kill yourself with a knife,
it's not listed anywhere as knife
violence. Suicide is seldom
violent, unless it's suicide by
cop.