Owning Mahowny

Quote: FrGamble

Yet we are obviously supernatural beings with a soul and free will. We feel shame...

You have to teach shame to small kids,
they don't feel it naturally. Shame is
not a natural emotion. When the Christians
came to Hawaii, they were appalled that
the natives wore no clothes at all, year round,
and had not the slightest bit of shame in
it. They had to be taught, over a long period
of time, what shame was because they had
no idea.

After all, the Bible says Adam and Eve were
kicked out of the garden of Eden and felt
shame at their nakedness, so it must be bad.
Right? Ignorant happy Hawaiians, good thing
they were wised up.

You are way confused. Nakedness is a good thing, and before the fall Adam and Eve felt no shame being naked in the garden. Feeling shame about being naked, exposed, and vulnerable to others who could take advantage of you is an example of good old original sin that you for some reason still don't recognize. I also think you are wrong about shame not being natural in all of us. The Hawaiians might not have felt bad about being naked, but I bet they felt shame when they did something they knew was wrong. Maybe they lusted after another woman or cheated on their wife or stole someone's girlfriend - for this they felt shame. What is more they did not need to be told by missionaries that this was wrong, they knew it in their heart. The missionaries came and helped them understand and deal with the shame, guilt, and unhappiness they already felt. The missionaries offered them a way out of their slavery to sin and a help to living without shame ever again. This is why as you've mentioned before the message was so readily accepted. The Christians might also have given them some practical advice about wearing clothes to help eliminate temptation, but it wasn't because nakedness was bad.

Quote: FrGamble

I also think you are wrong about shame not being natural in all of us. .

All you have to do is be around little
kids 2 years old and younger and you'll
see they have no shame, you have to
literally teach it to them. They'll hit
the dog with a hammer and think it's
funny. You have to explain to them it's
hurtful. Shame is acquired, it's not a
natural trait. Shame is a huge tool of
the Church. Guilt and shame are what
every Catholic remembers from their
time in a Catholic school.

Some say it's a sin arguing with a fool.

Quote: 1nickelmiracle

Some say it's a sin arguing with a fool.

Believing in sin doesn't make you a fool,
just ill informed. I only believe in things
I can prove exist.

Bob, you're never gonna open their eyes. And Father, neither will you.

And, what does all this have to do with Owning Mahowny?

Quote: zippyboy

And, what does all this have to do with Owning Mahowny?

Gambling and addiction and sin. Anytime somebody
uses the phoney word sin, I feel compelled to correct
them. You can't just take a bunch of things you don't
like and label them sins, its wrong. I think beautiful
women marrying ugly men is a sin. But is it? nooooo

I am flabbergasted. A two year who hits a dog with a hammer and sees the dog whimper and recoil in fear will feel shame. Shame in this sense is not a bad thing, the Church doesn't teach it or use it as a tool, the human race does that and for good reason. Shame and guilt are the red flags that go up when we know we have sinned. Maybe you are thinking that sin is something a bunch of guys in the Church don't like and label as sin. That is actually a different conversation (and maybe this discussion should be a different thread). What I'm hoping you eventually see here is that we all naturally feel bad about certain actions we commit, whether you are a native Hawaiian who has never heard the Gospel, a Muslium, Christian, whoever. Those actions you feel guilty about are sins. You might call them something different, but the fact of the matter is you Evenbob and I both commit sins, hopefully not many and hopefully not bad ones, nevertheless you sin. The proof is you feel shame, but don't worry its not a bad thing. It's like feeling pain, it helps us know something is wrong and we should fix it.

Quote: FrGamble

I am flabbergasted. A two year who hits a dog with a hammer and sees the dog whimper and recoil in fear will feel shame. .

Nope, they don't, unless they're taught to.
They have to be taught right from wrong,
they have no idea otherwise. All they see is
themselves and what they want and need.
If you don't do it properly, you get a spoiled
brat kid. One that will be a pain in the ass
because all he see's are his own desires.

I maintain that if a kid doesn't feel bad after hitting a dog with a hammer you don't have a spoiled kid you have a sociopath. Bob teaching someone right from wrong is really just developing a natural sense that is already within us all. If I was to teach you that eating cheese was wrong, no amount of my effort to do so would be successful because your experience that cheese is good would always win out. When you are taught that stealing is wrong it jives with what you already feel in your heart and mind and the idea that stealing is bad is reinforced and explained, not taught. This is also why I could never convince you that adultery is good, because you instinctively and implicitly know better.