Pope Francis

Quote: FrGamble

In the case of pedophilia the percentage of priests who are accused is actually a little lower than the general population. .

Actually, that's wrong. Very few priests are
guilty of pedophilia, molesting a pre
pubescent child. The average age
of the molested boys is between 11
and 12 years old. after they've reached
puberty. The priests are guilty of
sexual child abuse, not pedophilia. The
Vatican claims 2%, about the same for
the general population, but that number is way off.

"Richard Sipe is a psychotherapist and former priest, who has studied celibacy and sexuality in the priesthood for four decades. He has authored three books on the topic. By extrapolating from his 25 years of interviews of 1,500 priests and others, he estimates that 6% of priests abuse. "

"Barbara Dorris, outreach director of the Survivors’ Network of those Abused by Priests, said on Sunday that BishopAccountability.org, a website that attempts to document abuse cases and apparent cover-ups, had figures suggesting that the proportion of US priests accused of abuse from 1950 until 2013 was about 5.6%.
'The real percentage of predator priests is of course much higher,' Dorris said. “And in the far larger developing world – where the power imbalance between clergy and congregants is far greater and where bishops enjoy far more status and deference – we believe the rate is higher still."

The largest study ever done on priests
was conducted in Australia.

"The research has shown that, in Australia, 7% of priests nationally have been accused of sex abuse. In the Diocese of Sale, it is twice as many, with 15.1%, and there is a whopping 40% of the St John of God order being accused."

There's no reason to believe these figures
would not hold up in the rest of the worlds
diocese. I would think an average of 10%
to 12% is not far fetched at all. FrG will
say I'm full of it, until he finds out later
I was right all along. (he really hates
when that happens)

Quote: FrGamble

Thank God that morality is not based on an individuals' understanding of right or wrong

Mine is.

Quote: FrGamble

In the case of pedophilia the percentage of priests who are accused is actually a little lower than the general population. This of course takes into consideration the strict understanding of pedophilia, the abuse of pre-pubescent children. This sickness is different than the majority of cases involving priests that is usually young males who are after puberty. That is why many people have pointed to the issue of homosexuality in the priesthood as a serious issue.

I didn't plan on going into the minutia of the description. I'd meant priests having sex with anyone who wasn't capable of giving permission legally. To me there is no difference between raping a 12 year old or a raping a nine year old. Is it more moral in the churches opinion if children are allowed to ripen?

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Again if you limit the study to pedophilia you will see very similar or close numbers, usually a little lower, than when compared to other Christiany religions, other religions, schoolteachers, or family members.

I have to question who is doing the counting, and who is doing the reporting. If a kid goes home and tells his parents a bike salesperson raped him, the parents gather up the kid and head to the police station. If a kid tells his Catholic parents a priest raped him, or forced him to perform or receive oral or anal sex or just penal manipulation, the parents more likely will tell the kid to wash his mouth out with soap.

It is disgusting that so many of the child molesting priests got away with it because of the statute of limitations. Like I said earlier, I don't care if they have gay sex or any other kind, except with kids. It's the lies that get me. And the faux moral superiority.

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It is true that celibacy doesn't correspond to any orientation when lived out properly.

It is so odd to me, that your church thinks itself higher in authority than your deity.

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When local governments and individual Churches or people did these things did that make it right?

Apparently to them it did. Just as the church thinks it's right to shuffle molesters around and disguise the abuse.

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I agree that people do what they think is right. Thank God that morality is not based on an individuals' understanding of right or wrong or on the majority of society's understanding of what is wrong or right.

Morality is defined by the authority at the time.

Quote: petroglyph

It is so odd to me, that your church thinks itself higher in authority than your deity.
.

Because there is no god, the Church and
the deity are one and the same. That's
why they're so frightening. They can
decide to kill innocent women as
witches and who argued with them.

I like to think if there was a god, he would
never tolerate an awful institution like
the Catholic Church to exist. Priests abusing
kids in gods name? But obviously there
is no god, he would have never let this
go on this long.

Quote: petroglyph

I didn't plan on going into the minutia of the description. I'd meant priests having sex with anyone who wasn't capable of giving permission legally. To me there is no difference between raping a 12 year old or a raping a nine year old.

There is a huge difference between raping a pre-pubscent child and and one that is going through or post-puberty. The mental disorder is different as is the treatment and symptoms. A priest having sex with a teenage boy is illegal homosexual behavior because as you mentioned they are not capable of giving permission legally. There is a huge difference and it is worth going into the minutia and getting our terms straight.

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It is so odd to me, that your church thinks itself higher in authority than your deity.

I don't understand this comment. Jesus was a celibate man. Perhaps you are talking about God saying it is not good for man to be alone. That is very true and celibacy properly lived out is not someone who is lonely.

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Morality is defined by the authority at the time.

So you are saying it was a morally right thing to do the burning of witches and the holocaust? Morality is not determined by the authority at that time, nor by an individual, nor by a majority vote. All of these things lead to the great atrocities of the 20th century. Morality is not determined by strange mathematical formula that takes survival instincts plus harmony living together divided by resources or whatever Bob recently suggested. There is not a circumstance nor is there an individual or an authority figure that can make raping children, killing innocent people, or stealing other people's belongings good or moral things to do.

Quote: FrGamble

So you are saying it was a morally right thing to do the burning of witches .

Are you saying the Church thought it
was immoral and did it anyway? Of
course they thought it was moral and
what god wanted. There is no god, so
of course they can't tell the difference
between what god wants and what they
want. It's all the same to them.

Quote: Evenbob

Are you saying the Church thought it
was immoral and did it anyway?

I know you don't think sin exists, but you are pretty good at defining it. That is what happened. People did what was immoral and against Church teaching because they thought they were the ones who defined what was good and right. They took morality into their own hands and viola - burning witches. They basically became atheists for a bit and decided that there was no God and that they could do whatever they wanted. This is the cause of most of the problems of the world and certainly inside the Church.

Quote: FrGamble

That is what happened. People did what was immoral .

By 'people' you mean the Catholics and
then the Protestants, correct?

Quote: FrGamble

There is a huge difference between raping a pre-pubscent child and and one that is going through or post-puberty.

So a priest that rapes a 13 yr. old, and a priest that rapes a 10 year old should be charged with different crimes? From what I observe, both mostly walk away free.

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The mental disorder is different as is the treatment and symptoms.

From my psychotherapist acquaintance who worked 50 years in the field and still dabbles, he is unconvinced that there is any mental treatment that cures/heals this kind of ailment. I've read there is no cure for pedophilia.

I will admit to not being very familiar with the intricate terms of youth rape or abuse. I'm just a casual observer and find either practice abhorrent. Regardless of the terms you attach, the victims are permanently damaged.

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A priest having sex with a teenage boy is illegal homosexual behavior because as you mentioned they are not capable of giving permission legally. There is a huge difference and it is worth going into the minutia and getting our terms straight.

You seem to attach a huge significance to the word homosexual. That seems to be an added insult. It's rape. Should the crime of raping a teen boy or girl be different ?

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I don't understand this comment. Jesus was a celibate man.

I don't believe this for an instant. Am I wrong in thinking Jesus drank wine and had acquaintances that were prostitutes? Do the math.

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Perhaps you are talking about God saying it is not good for man to be alone.

I believed for probably most of 50 years Padre, or at least I thought I did. Prayed over nearly every meal etc. But belief in the supernatural being that you are referring to just slipped away, slowly at first and then all of a sudden. I wondered about it for a few years and thought maybe belief might come back, kinda weird actually. But I just don't have that belief now.

And I do think it is very good to live alone at least for a few years for everyone. I have several friends who are celibate, not in the religious sense, but just don't feel the trade is worth the effort. They seem fine. I lived alone for the better part of 5 years or so. Got so I liked it.

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So you are saying it was a morally right thing to do the burning of witches and the holocaust?

I didn't know your church was in charge of the camps. Whole nother topic there.

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Morality is not determined by the authority at that time, nor by an individual, nor by a majority vote.

Of course it does. Just go to Colorado city Utah today. They are still practicing plural marriages. In those two city's, the church leader even performs the marriages of old men to young girls. It is moral in that town in that belief system. Fifty miles away, not so much.

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There is not a circumstance nor is there an individual or an authority figure that can make raping children, killing innocent people, or stealing other people's belongings good or moral things to do.

Not to me, not to you. But look how and where/when we live. Go to Saudi. They crucified people just two weeks ago. Old influential men marry young girls all the time, some as young as nine. It seems like the right thing to do to them. It's good to be king.

Quote: petroglyph

I don't believe this for an instant. Am I wrong in thinking Jesus drank wine and had acquaintances that were prostitutes? Do the math.

Jesus never said he was celibate, nor
ever hinted that anybody should be.
The Church decided they wanted him
to be celibate, so he was celibate.