Biden's Biggest Blunder

Quote: Evenbob

Things turned out extremely well in Vietnam. They are communist in name only. They actually have one of the largest free markets in the world.

"An authoritarian communist party controls Vietnam. It's true. But its founding ideology appears all but gone from the hearts of Vietnam's people. Vietnam, in fact, may actually be one of the most pro-capitalist countries on Earth. Almost all Vietnamese people — 95% of them — now support capitalism, according to the Pew Research Center"

Vietnam is one of the most tourist visited countries in Southeast Asia. Almost 20 million people a year visit Vietnam. They have wonderful food, wonderful hotels and tourist attractions, the people are very friendly and outgoing. Anthony Bourdain loved Vietnam and very much wanted to live there. They may have a communist government but they are one of the most capitalistic countries in the world. To the Vietnamese the Vietnam War is ancient history. It happened generations ago and they hold no grudges towards Americans. In fact they love Americans now.

People say the same thing about China (that it is communist in name only and point to the tourism and economy....)

The reality for Vietnam (and China) is after the war, there were massive camps for members of the South Vietnamese military and government that were horrific. I personally know quite a few South Vietnam veterans who escaped camps, if the stories of the 70s were even half true, not good.

As for one of the largest markets in the world, I highly doubt that, probably not even in the top 30 of GDP... As for food I agree, I know many Vietnamese and have had many traditional meals. As for tourism, that means nothing, some of the most authoritarians regimes have high tourism numbers and strong tourism economies (south America, Caribbean, Asia, middle east, take your pick....) because they are often in exotic locations.... I have no doubt that Vietnam is beautiful (I have never been), I would love to visit for a number of reasons, that does not make it a good country.

What I do know is South Vietnamese who fled to America in the 70s and 80s (in many cases after lengthy stints in camps) hate Vietnam (those I know here), and many of the ones I personally know will never return to visit anyone because they feel the government is corrupt and betrayed them. They are some of the biggest anti-communist people I know (would give the right wing here a run for their money....) One of my first jobs here, was in a place that was heavily dominated by South Vietnamese refugees (many were retiring as I was starting), and they hated Vietnam.

I think my statement that Vietnam is just a smaller version of China is pretty accurate. Turned out great for rich tourists in cordoned off resorts, and great for companies wanting cheap manufacturing, not great for people who actually live there (or used to).

Things would be far better if America stayed, and most South Vietnamese who immigrated to America after the war would agree (I would bet anything on that).

Contrast our official State Department statement of US Relations China vs Vietnam.

Quote:

Twenty-five years after the establishment of bilateral relations in 1995, the United States and Vietnam are trusted partners with a friendship grounded in mutual respect. U.S.-Vietnam relations have become increasingly cooperative and comprehensive, evolving into a flourishing partnership that spans political, economic, security, and people-to-people ties. The United States supports a strong, prosperous, and independent Vietnam that contributes to international security; engages in mutually beneficial trade relations; and respects human rights and the rule of law. Relations are guided by the 2013 U.S.-Vietnam Comprehensive Partnership, an overarching framework for advancing the bilateral relationship, and Joint Statements issued by our two countries’ leaders in 2015, 2016, and in May and November 2017. In 2020, Vietnam and the United States commemorated 25 years of diplomatic relations between the two countries, renewing their commitment to strengthened cooperation

https://www.state.gov/countries-areas/vietnam/

Quote:

The United States seeks a constructive, results-oriented relationship with China. The United States works to achieve concrete progress on U.S. interests, including ensuring Chinese support for exerting maximum pressure on North Korea to end its nuclear program, reducing the U.S. trade deficit with China, and stopping the flow of illegal opioids from China to the United States. The United States also seeks progress on areas of disagreement such as China’s territorial claims in the South China Sea and lack of respect for human rights and religious freedom. In addition to regular discussions between senior U.S. officials and their Chinese counterparts, the United States uses a range of exchanges, dialogues, and people-to-people ties to pursue its goals.

https://www.state.gov/countries-areas/china/

Quote: Gandler

As for one of the largest markets in the world, I highly doubt that,

And you would be wrong.

"Today, Viet Nam is one of the stars of the emerging markets universe. Its economic growth of 6-7% rivals China, and it exports are worth as much as the total value of its GDP. Anything from Nike sportswear to Samsung smartphones are manufactured in this ASEAN nation. Such is the success of the country, Sheng Lu, an assistant professor at the University of Delaware told the Financial Times that there are few spare workers or production facilities left."

Because of capitalism and a free market economy Vietnam is absolutely thriving.
That's why they get 20 million tourists a year. Crap hole third world countries
do not get millions of foreign tourists, why would they. You're talking about
a Vietnam that existed in the 70s and 80s. That Vietnam is long gone.

The Story of Viet Nam's Economic Miracle https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/09/how-vietnam-became-an-economic-miracle/

I have seen countless travel videos of Vietnam the last couple of
years and the place is nothing short of amazing.

We had a similar problem with South Vietnam's government as with Iraq and Afghanistan. Corruption. They were willing to take our financial support and talk the talk. They weren't very democratic.

I think even though the North Vietnamese fought under communism, it may have turned out to be more a vehicle to improving their life and they weren't actually married to the ideology as much as we thought. That's my guess.

I love this.

Quote: Gandler

But, Afghanistan is, in many ways even worse. Female rights vanished within a week, along with speech, expression, music, etc..... Like an instant shift from an open and free society to theocracy (almost literally) overnight. Afghanistan was not perfect with American presence, but it was the best it has been in history, now that is gone.

Nothing we can do about it. Can't make places colonies anymore, and why would we want a colony that costs us money?

Quote:

I am not a fan of religion (not a secret), but the religion that I find to be the most dangerous in the modern world is Islam. When countries are allowed to become theocracies (especially Islamic ones), it tends to be very bad for the people living there and the world (they tend to be fine with harboring extremists if they align with their religion which bleeds into other countries). And, no (I should not need to say this), but this does not mean Muslims as people are bad, but Islam (the ideology) is a religion that taken to the extreme breeds issues (as do all religions, but Islam is particularly dangerous because of its teachings and its finality).

You are right about islam, but quit adding the little disclaimer after. When we were fighting communism and the USSR we did not say that "communism is bad but that does not mean the Russian are bad people." We said communism was evil and left it at that. We did not bring in communist refugees and allow them to keep being communist. We made no bones about it being evil.

Today we have a left who hates every religion besides islam, which they defend to the end of the earth. They ignore the brutality of it because they have a bee up their tails about western Judeo-Christian values for whatever reason. They really are weird that way but to explain logic to a liberal is impossible.

100 years ago if we took a place like Afghanistan we would have brought in Christian missionaries to help de-islam the place. It would take 100 years for the project, but the problem would eventually be gone. Today that is not PC.

We are out of there, be happy.

Quote: Evenbob

I love this.

I think this was intended to “trigger the libs,” but I think it’s funny.

I definitely believe the rumors that he had a face lift sometime after he left office as VP in 2017. His neck used to look completely different than it does now.

fleaswatter‘a trolling attempts are always so sad.

Does he think anyone on these boards gives a crap about John Kerry?

That’d be like me attacking Bob Dole. Who cares? lol