Reincarnation

Quote: FrGamble

I'll tell you what you present the peer reviewed scientific evidence that Catholic Church killed witches for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Oh, I don't need to. It's documented fact,
and you know it.
Even Protestants did it in Salem and other
places. It's Christian tradition, apparently.

Quote: FrGamble

You think faith is a leap in the dark without any reason, evidence,.

Of course it is. If you had real evidence, you
would not need faith. If god proved to people
that he really existed, faith would fly out the
window.

Faith is claimed to be a supernatural act performed by Divine grace. It is "the act of the intellect assenting to a Divine truth owing to the movement of the will, which is itself moved by the grace of God" (St. Thomas, II-II, Q. iv, a. 2). And just as the light of faith is a gift supernaturally bestowed upon the understanding, so also this Divine grace moving the will is, as its name implies, an equally supernatural and an absolutely gratuitous gift. Neither gift is due to previous study, neither of them can be acquired by human efforts, but "Ask and ye shall receive." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_in_Christianity#Faith_is_a_supernatural_act

No mention of proof or evidence, faith is a
'divine gift'. You have to take for granted
what the Church claims is true. That's what
faith is.

No, no, no...faith as St. Thomas Aquinas is speaking of here is the theological virtue that is indeed a gift that raises our intellect into realms that it cannot reach on its own. This is faith we have in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, faith in the inerrancy of the deposit of faith (Bible, Tradition, and Magisterium) is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and the efficacious nature of the Sacraments.

However, when you are talking about belief in God, natural reason can get us there with the help of science, logic, history, and philosophy. To believe in a first cause or creator is really just the truth we arrive at if we seriously look at the evidence and apply our natural reason to the question of why there is something rather than nothing? Discovering who or what this God is leads us into a discussion of faith.

Quote: FrGamble

However, when you are talking about belief in God, natural reason can get us there with the help of science, logic, history, and philosophy. .

No, it can't. If it could, Einstein, Asimov,
Franklin, Hawking, etc, would not be atheists.
To believe in god, you have to have a huge
heaping portion of going out on a limb
old fashioned faith. That's what sustains
you, and it's what makes reasonable people
run the other way. Faith got us nothing
but trouble for 2000 years, some of us
have learned from that. Trust, but verify,
as Reagan used to say.

"Trust, but verify", is the only reasonable thing you said in that post.

First of all I don't think Einstein or Franklin were atheists, but it doesn't really matter. Would you like me to put together a list of theists? I don't think that will advance your argument. You would like to think that belief in God means going out on a limb, but it doesn't. Please remember to not conflate Christianity with a simple belief in a Higher Power or a Creator at this point of the discussion. It is faith that sustains my belief in Jesus Christ as true God and true man - a faith by the way that is constantly reinforced, challenged, and strengthened. My fundamental belief in the existence of God is the result of logic and reason and it is sustained by scientific discoveries and evidence.

Quote: FrGamble

my belief in Jesus Christ as true God and true man - a faith by the way that is constantly reinforced, challenged, and strengthened.

In my experience, this means every time you
see somebody talked into believing, this
reinforces your beliefs. 'Look, god convinced
another non believer, he must be real'. This
is only evidence that you are a good salesman,
not that god exists.

Quote:

My fundamental belief in the existence of God is the result of logic and reason and it is sustained by scientific discoveries and evidence.

Yet in all our discussions you have yet to
post a single bit of evidence that god
exists. Real evidence, not the Churches
version, which is faux evidence.

Quote: Evenbob

Yet in all our discussions you have yet to
post a single bit of evidence that god
exists. Real evidence, not the Churches
version, which is faux evidence.

Oh my goodness gracious, you are crazy! How about the impossibility of an infinite regress? Please show me why this evidence from the field of philosophy or logic is not real evidence. What about all the evidence pointing to the theory that the universe had an ultimate beginning in an event we commonly call the Big Bang? Are you going to say all the research and proof out there that points to a creator is faux evidence?

Quote: FrGamble

What about all the evidence pointing to the theory that the universe had an ultimate beginning in an event we commonly call the Big Bang?

Which big bang, the latest one? What about
all those before it, that go back into infinity.
Forever and ever, world without end.

Quote:

How about the impossibility of an infinite regress?

It's been shown that at the quantum level, things come from nothing all the time.
How come Aquinas didn't cover that.

Quote: Evenbob

Which big bang, the latest one? What about
all those before it,

Really, there are other Big Bangs. Surely, you have scientific evidence of this?

Quote:

It's been shown that at the quantum level, things come from nothing all the time.
How come Aquinas didn't cover that.

Remember the context in which quantam mechanics are working in, already existing material. St. Thomas is addressing something arising from absolutely nothing.

Quote: FrGamble

Really, there are other Big Bangs. Surely, you have scientific evidence of this?

Surely you have evidence it's not true? If it
happened once, logic dictates it could happen
again.

Quote:

Remember the context in which quantam mechanics are working in, already existing material. St. Thomas is addressing something arising from absolutely nothing.

It's all moot anyway. The universe has always
been here, it had no beginning, it just is. We
can't understand that because were trapped
in time, where cause and effect rule. We have
always been here also, in one form or another.
That's why you don't worry about uncle Ned
after he dies, you instinctively know he's fine.

Ever notice little kids have no fear of death?
2-3-5-7 year olds typically accept death as
a normal thing. It's because they haven't
been frightened yet by religion or pessimists.
Being terrified of death is a learned behavior,
usually taught to us by religion. And our
parents, friends and the media. Which of
course learned it from religion.