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Hey FrGamble!

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April 18th, 2020 at 8:03:34 AM permalink
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596	Quote: petroglyph “Imagining that you are deep and complex, but others are simple, is one of the primary signs of malignant selfishness.” Stefan Molyneux I like that quote, thanks. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (

April 18th, 2020 at 8:32:07 AM permalink

aceofspades

Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 83
Posts: 2019

Quote: FrGamble
God makes the universe intelligible and able to be studied. With order and laws we can know for sure that, for example, something cannot come from nothing. Imagine if every time you are doing an experiment you had to worry about some matter or some other substance popping into existence and ruining your hard work. Believing that the universe has order and is governed by laws gives us the confidence to study it and the hope that it makes sense. It is inspires us to learn about the amazing creation around us knowing that it isn't some cosmic accident impossibly springing out of nothingness.

This has impacts for logic as well. Contrary to what some might believe you cannot make your own reality. There are unbroken rules that govern not only the universe but our thinking as well. A cannot equal not-A, and many such other principles. These are fundamental principles that are sure to guide us even without having to test them. It is like a metaphysical truth.

Ethics is of course directly impacted by if we believe in God or not. Do we make up our own rules for what is good or bad? Is what is good for me bad for you? Are their any universal objective truths to live by? With God there are and we cannot change them. They are like the laws of the universe or the laws of logic. We cannot create them or change them. We can't vote to make something unethical ethical all of the sudden, it is not majority rules. If you allow someone to say there is no God and I can create whatever ethical laws I want then the whole thing falls apart.

Padre - if something cannot come from nothing, how did God come into existence?

April 18th, 2020 at 10:14:52 AM permalink
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013	Quote: aceofspades Padre - if something cannot come from nothing, how did God come into existence? That's easy, they just make up a reason. Like how can Superman possibly lift something that's 1000 times bigger than his body mass. He just can because he has 'super' powers. So does god. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.

April 18th, 2020 at 10:28:17 AM permalink

FrGamble

Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596

Quote: aceofspades
Padre - if something cannot come from nothing, how did God come into existence?

It is a logical necessity. For there to be contigent beings or things that do not have the cause of their being in themselves, there has to be a non-contigent reality that has the cause for its being in itself. In other words God is not a thing, but existence itself. The first cause of all that exists. Without God you end up with the impossibility of an actual infinite regress, which is absurd. It is rather simple logic that shows there is a God. However, the bigger questions on who or what this God is? Well that is obviously the primary question humanity has been asking since the beginning.

“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (

April 18th, 2020 at 10:53:30 AM permalink

Evenbob

Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25013

Quote: FrGamble
It is a logical necessity. For there to be contigent beings or things that do not have the cause of their being in themselves, there has to be a non-contigent reality that has the cause for its being in itself. g.

See? like I said, they just make
something up. How can Superman
leap a building in a single bound?
He just can, shut up about it..
God people are so entertaining,
life would be so dull without them
to make fun of..

If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.

April 18th, 2020 at 11:02:33 AM permalink

aceofspades

Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 83
Posts: 2019

Quote: FrGamble
It is a logical necessity. For there to be contigent beings or things that do not have the cause of their being in themselves, there has to be a non-contigent reality that has the cause for its being in itself. In other words God is not a thing, but existence itself. The first cause of all that exists. Without God you end up with the impossibility of an actual infinite regress, which is absurd. It is rather simple logic that shows there is a God. However, the bigger questions on who or what this God is? Well that is obviously the primary question humanity has been asking since the beginning.

But then your statement that something cannot come from nothing falls flat, as God can come from nothing

It is a Mobius strip of logical fallacy

April 18th, 2020 at 11:04:21 AM permalink
Mosca Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 22 Posts: 730	Quote: aceofspades Padre - if something cannot come from nothing, how did God come into existence? It’s turtles, all the way down.

April 18th, 2020 at 11:09:58 AM permalink
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013	Quote: aceofspades It is a Mobius strip of logical fallacy Never use the word logic in connection with god. There is nothing logical or reasonable about the concept of a god. You have to throw all that out the window and then almost any wild concept makes sense to you. Wheeeee... If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.

April 18th, 2020 at 11:51:55 AM permalink

Dalex64

Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687

Quote: aceofspades
But then your statement that something cannot come from nothing falls flat, as God can come from nothing

It is a Mobius strip of logical fallacy

There is a more formal expression for that - Special Pleading
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special_pleading

They also employ a lot of circular logic, pointing out that there must be an exception, that exception is God, only God can be the exception, therefore got exists because there must be an exception that only God can be.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan

April 18th, 2020 at 12:44:27 PM permalink

FrGamble

Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596

Quote: aceofspades
But then your statement that something cannot come from nothing falls flat, as God can come from nothing

It is a Mobius strip of logical fallacy

Nope. Something cannot come from nothing. On that we can agree. Yet something does exist that is not the cause of its own existence. Therefore this is a contigent thing. It depends on something for its existence. To avoid an infinite regress or as someone already pointed out the absurdity, "it's turtles all the way down", we logically have to have a non-contigent reality that is the reason for all that exists. This reality doesn't come from nothing, which would cause an exception and be illogical. God is a neccessary non-contingent being.

“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (

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