Hey FrGamble!

Quote: FrGamble

That's illogical. Why?

Padre - you cannot logically say that something cannot come from nothing in one breath and then say God came from nothing in the next

Quote: aceofspades

Padre - you cannot logically say that something cannot come from nothing in one breath and then say God came from nothing in the next

Yes they can! Just throw logic
and reason out the window
and twist your thinking into
the shape of pretzel. You'll
see.

Quote: aceofspades

Padre - you cannot logically say ...............

Priests rarely try to.

Quote: aceofspades

Padre - you cannot logically say that something cannot come from nothing in one breath and then say God came from nothing in the next

Of course you can't! That is why I'm not saying that. You are thinking God is a "something" or a contingent being. God is the neccessary entity/force/being that is the source and sustainer of all existence. What you don't seem to be getting is that it is illogical not to have some first cause and non-contigent spiritual reality. Without God nothing can exist, you will keep running into the absurdity of an actual infinite regress. I kind of chuckle that so many seem to not get the logic of that. Please, if you have another logical explination for the existence of the universe I would love to hear it.

Quote: FrGamble

Of course you can't! That is why I'm not saying that. You are thinking God is a "something" or a contingent being. God is the neccessary entity/force/being that is the source and sustainer of all existence. What you don't seem to be getting is that it is illogical not to have some first cause and non-contigent spiritual reality. Without God nothing can exist, you will keep running into the absurdity of an actual infinite regress. I kind of chuckle that so many seem to not get the logic of that. Please, if you have another logical explination for the existence of the universe I would love to hear it.

But God is not a logical explanation at all - it is a made up explanation without any basis in provable fact

Maybe it would be helpful to you to think of a couple examples to show that this is not made up or illogical. If you are watching a long train moving and cannot see the engine, just by the fact that it is moving do you know there must be an engine or sone force causing or that caused the motion? Of course you do. Just like something cannot come from nothing you also know that motion has a cause. If you see a stack of books that descend through the floor and you cannot see the bottom, you know without a doubt that there is something the stacks of books are resting on. You positing that there is an engine or a surface upon which the books rest is not a guess and you are not making it up. Do you see that?

Quote: FrGamble

You positing that there is an engine or a surface upon which the books rest is not a guess and you are not making it up. Do you see that?

So when you can't figure out
how the universe works or
where it came from, the logical
explanation is some god is
behind it? You can't be serious.

That would be the absolute LAST
conclusion you would reach, not
the first. First you would exhaust
every possible explanation, which
isn't possible. God is always the
last item on any list of explanations.
You throw logic and reason to the
curb and just blame everything on
a god. Do you see that?

Quote: Evenbob

So when you can't figure out
how the universe works or
where it came from, the logical
explanation is some god is
behind it? You can't be serious.

That would be the absolute LAST
conclusion you would reach, not
the first. First you would exhaust
every possible explanation, which
isn't possible. God is always the
last item on any list of explanations.
You throw logic and reason to the
curb and just blame everything on
a god. Do you see that?

You are thinking of God in the terms of a Thor or Zeus, some explanation based on a lack of knowledge or a "god of the gaps". What I am talking about is based on science, what we know of the world and logic. There is no other explanation for movement than some force acting upon something. There is no other explanation for the stack of books then they are resting on something. Surely you can go with me that far, right?

Quote: FrGamble

You are thinking of God in the terms of a Thor or Zeus, some explanation based on a lack of knowledge or a "god of the gaps". What I am talking about is based on science, what we know of the world and logic. There is no other explanation for movement than some force acting upon something. There is no other explanation for the stack of books then they are resting on something. Surely you can go with me that far, right?

Padre - you still cannot logically explain how you can say

If X then Y

BUT,

If nothing then God

Quote: FrGamble

There is no other explanation

So in your world science has exhausted
every explanation and they've thrown
up their hands in defeat and are blaming
everything on some god. Luckily the
real world outside of your head is
nothing like that. I totally understand
that for you to live with your beliefs
you have to twist and turn everything
to fit your square peg into the round
hole of reality. Just don't expect the
rest of us to go along with you for
that ride.